• Tue, Feb 6 2007

The Vaccine-Autism Urban Myth

If there has been a more harmful urban legend circulating in our society than the vaccine-autism link, it is hard to know what it might be.

Writes Arthur Caplan, Emanuel and Robert Hart Professor of Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, where he co-directs the Ethics and Vaccines Project, in an op-ed in today’s Philadelphia Inquirer. Despite no scientific proof to the contrary—-”thimerosal has been removed from vaccines in this and other countries for many years, with no obvious impact on the incidence of autism“—it seems that a connection between vaccines and autism has become entrenched in the public consciousness; has become the stuff of urban myth. Caplan cites more than a few examples of how anti-vaccine advocates have had an impact on public health, and not necessarily for the better:

When one of my students recently conducted a pilot study of attitudes about the new cervical-cancer vaccine, fears about autism were prominent among the reasons many respondents gave for being wary of the vaccine. Friends of mine continue to tell me of parents in Lafayette Hill, Voorhees, Greenville and Downingtown who won’t have their children vaccinated because of the risk of autism. States continue to allow parents to opt out of vaccines on “philosophical” grounds – perhaps the only arena in American public life where “secular philosophy” is given legal standing in public policy. And even some young health-care workers report that they don’t get important vaccines that would protect them, their families and their vulnerable patients against death because of worries about autism and vaccines.

Not science, but distrust—of “medicine, science, government and experts, a distrust that has little to do with scientific studies or expert opinions”—fuels anti-vaccine fervor. A just-published study by Stanford researchers highlights the disconnect between what science journalists report about autism (environmental causes for autism comprise 48% of their reporting) and what scientists actually study (brain and behavior research accounts for 41% of their research).

It is the extent of this “disconnect”—-between scientific evidence confuting a vaccine-autism link on the one hand, and a continued “populist” belief that “vaccines caused my child to become autistic“—-that puzzles and yet intrigues me. Can it be that the “establishment” of scientists have sequestered themselves so far away up in the gleaming ivory tower white of their research labs that they simply cannot hear the stories of parents who again and again offer the simple evidence of their eyes: One day my child was normal. The next day, after the vaccine, he was not?

That said, I will offer up a bit of my own experience which is, I know a vaccine did not cause my son Charlie to be “become” autistic. Indeed, I think he was as he is from the time he was conceived: Charlie has always been Charlie. Just as Charlie was being diagnosed with autism in July of 1999, Jim and I started to read website after website about a connection between the MMR vaccine and autism. We wracked our memories, I checked the journal I have kept from the time I was expecting Charlie, we went over and over the medical records: No.

And yet, when Charlie turned five, we decided not to have him vaccinated. (Despite Jim’s too-obvious statement: “It can’t make him autistic. He already is.”) For an hour I held a sweaty, miserable, screaming, writhing Charlie in my lap as a nurse tried to draw enough blood out of him to have his titres checked. After exchanging some emails messages with other parents, Jim and I wrote a letter seeking a religious exemption against having Charlie vaccinated and even today as I recall the wording of that letter, the lines from the Bible quoted, I know I signed without believing what was on that piece of paper.

“Vaccine” and “autism” had become for me—have become in the public psyche—not merely linked. These two words, which have nothing intrinisically to do with each other, have become equated, and because of coincidence, of a correlation that seems to contain a clue to causation: An 18-month-old child receives her or his immunizations. An 18-month-old child is noticed to not be playing in varied ways, or interacting, or speaking. The parents know they have “done everything” to ensure their child’s health and development, have followed the advice of the pediatrician exactingly, and then some, so it must be some external agent, some mysterious force, that has caused this terrible change in a child. And—-because so much seemed to go wrong when the doctor’s advice and instructions were first followed—the parent, now with not only a “diseased” child but one with hard-to-control behaviors, turns away from traditional medicine and seeks answers elsewhere.

I think, that is, it is possible to understand why so many parents believe in a vaccine-autism link. What I am trying still to understand, is how to dispute such a link; as Professor Caplan’s op-ed suggests, appeals to the evidence of science have yet to be effective.

When I was enrolling Charlie in the school district in the town we now live in back in May, I discovered that a letter stating our “religious grounds” for objecting to his being vaccinated was not going to be accepted without having to take things much farther. We were desperate, not because we have an autistic child, but because we needed to make sure that Charlie was in a school placement as his old school was closing, and the fear he underwent when we kept him out of school in November of 2005 seemed to us much worse than any threated from a vaccine. Late last spring, Charlie received the shots he had not had at the age of 5. He looked at the nurse sticking the needle in his arm, maybe winced a bit. There was no crying and we walked out to the car, and that was that.

Perhaps if more stories of how “a vaccine didn’t cause my child’s autism” were heard, we could start to tease apart the vaccine-autism link and show what strange bedfellows these two have been all along.

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  • http://compostermom.blogspot.com Daisy

    The urge to blame is very American, just like the urge to file suit. This is unfortunate, because it means false beliefs can derail real research into treatment, education, and (perhaps) causes of autism.

  • Leila

    Even when all the studies point to the lack of connection, the mercury-autism proponents think the studies were funded by “Big Pharma”, CDC, etc and therefore were biased. There’s no way to change those people’s minds.

    My boy was born in 2003 in California and that was after thimerosal was removed from vaccines. He didn’t seem to have any reactions from vaccines, like fevers or change in behavior. I did not get any shots during or just before pregnancy. Still, he is autistic.

    I took my son to have his flu shot this Fall and I cannot tell this to any of the autism parents in my community otherwise they’ll probably stop talking to me. All I know is that my kid has not had a bad cold since October 2005, and neither have I (after having flu shots as well both in 05 and 06). Our pediatrician assured me the flu shot was thimerosal-free for my son (even though he was just past 36 months). My father-in-law is a doctor and advised us to vaccinate because the flu is too dangerous for kids under 5.

  • http://www.mysamiam.blogspot.com Laura Cottington

    Leila, forgive me please, but I am smiling from ear to ear, and perhaps chuckling a little after reading your

    “I took my son to have his flu shot this Fall and I cannot tell this to any of the autism parents in my community otherwise they’ll probably stop talking to me.”

    One hundred percent true in my community too, and didn’t tell anyone either. And…Sam had to go twice for the flu shot since it was his first time. Thanks for your honesty!

  • http://compostermom.blogspot.com Daisy

    I usually don’t comment twice on a post — but it’s great that the blogosphere has allowed our “community” to grow. My son’s autism (Aspergers), like his blindness, is very likely genetic, not vaccine-caused.

  • Mary

    There is thirmesol in flu shots and that ingredient has the mercury in it.

    Perhaps the autism did not come from the mercury, but rather, autism is an autoimmunity disease quite like arthritis, then what?

    Of course some autism is genetic, that does not mean that vaccines are safe.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Dr. Caplan notes the risks and benefits of vaccines in his op-ed.

  • Mary

    You’ll notice that Dr. Caplan also does not write one reference, that I saw, in his op-ed. Even op-eds need to have a smattering of “where the heck did you get this info” strew into them.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Association of Autistic Spectrum Disorder and the Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine: A Systematic Review of Current Epidemiological Evidence

    Kumanan Wilson, MD, MSc, FRCP(C); Ed Mills, DPH; Cory Ross, MSc, DPH, CHE; Jessie McGowan, BMus, MLIS; Alex Jadad, MD, DPhil, FRCP(C)

    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2003;157:628-634.

  • A

    Mary-

    Not all flu vaccines contain thimerosal. It depends upon who the vaccine manufacturer is. If the vaccine that Leila’s son received was given by their pediatrician, it is very likely that the vaccine did not contain thimerosal.

  • Mary

    I’m confused, and should possibly ask Dr. Caplan, are you saying that the op-ed he just wrote he based on a 2003 op-ed? One that he doesn’t even refer to in his op-ed?

    And for the record, I’m not saying mercury causes autism, actually I buy into a whole different theory!

    Thanks

  • Mary

    That first op-ed should read article – it’s late!

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Hi Mary—-in the comment above I cite an article from Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine on a review of evidence for an MMR/autism link; the researchers note that “The current literature does not suggest an association between ASD and the MMR vaccine.”

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  • http://www.mumkeepingsane.blogspot.com mumkeepingsane

    Patrick’s autism was not caused by vaccines. I try to tell everyone that in an effort to dispell this myth.

    He has never had a vaccine with thimerisol in it. No flu shots (we’ve also never had the flu), no rogham or shots in pregnancy, and he’s never had a reaction to a vaccination. I even asked the doctor to give him his DPTP and MMR in different months because I didn’t like the idea of that many vaccines in one visit.

    I noticed autistic tendancies (although I didn’t recognize them as such) shortly after Patrick’s birth and they increased over the years until he was finally diagnosed at age 4. No regression simply slower development than typical children.

    And yet still, when he goes in for his MMR booster next month I’ll be terrified. When you hear something so many times it can cause great fear.

  • http://www.mysamiam.blogspot.com Laura Cottington

    I do know one thing, I will never miss a flu shot for my son with Autism and my neurotypical son ever again. You can die from the flu, Sam will not die from Autism. We had two more children die in our state today from the flu. That is the 3rd child to die in our state in the last two weeks. None of them had their flu vaccines. Minnesota accounts for 3 of the 13 nationwide deaths so far this season from flu. And they are all 3 children.
    http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=243119

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Thanks for sharing that Laura—-so sad.

    mumkeepingsane—-I was thoroughly apprehensive when I took Charlie in for his vaccines back in the spring. It turned out to be the “biggest no deal”—he was very calm about getting the actual shots, wriggled his arm a bit, walked out almost with a shrug (I had told him we would get his favorite sushi…..). That was perhaps the biggest proof I needed.

  • Mary

    Laura,

    I went and read that article and it said the one 8-year-old child had not had the vaccine, it did not say one way or the other for the other two.

    Personally, I buy into the theory that autism is an autoimmunity disease and as such the vaccines are “triggering” the autism in children that may or may not have ever developed the actual symptoms without having had the vaccines.

    And I say this as the mother of a child with an autoimmunity disease that was triggered by a vaccine (not autism).

    So, if your son is allergic or getting a reaction from a vaccine, how would you know? Is he highly functioning with his autism?

    Even people with flu vaccines still get the flu, so it’s a hard call either way and parents do the best they know based on what they believe, just like you do.

    Kristina,

    My children never cared about the shot itself either, it was the after affects that harmed them. I’ve had two children with severe reactions, therefore I decided my third child would not get vaccines. Makes sense to me!

  • Mary

    Mumkeepingsane,

    Did your son recieve vaccines from birth? If so, how would you know if it was a vaccine or not?

    Also, there is quite a bit of talk that vaccines given to the mother are affecting the babies – makes sense to me.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Thanks, Mary; if I may ask, what does your child have, if not autism? It is a new development that Charlie did not have a problem taking the vaccines, as he used to have a lot of difficulty being pricked by a needle. He was born with autism.

  • http://www.mysamiam.blogspot.com Laura Cottington

    Mary,
    Below is the second paragraph of the link I provided earlier:
    “The Minnesota Department of Health has announced 2 more children have died from influenza. “None of these children were vaccinated, they all died within 4 days of their initial illness,” said Richard Danila, Deputy State Epidemiologist.”

    The article I posted is the only “online” publication of the 3 deaths as of this evening. It was on all of our major networks 10pm news that they were confirmed to NOT have had the vaccines. Of which has instigated a huge surge to get them, and clinics will be open all weekend to allow parents to still get shots for their children, as our state reported flu totals are almost double already what they were total last year. Online info would be available by morning publications if you need to credit the source, I would suggest http://www.startribune.com

    While my son has classic autism, I know that his was not caused by vaccines, the lot numbers for Sam’s confirmed that, and our clinic does not use thirmerisol and hasn’t since 2001. They also use flu vaccines that don’t contain it as well. So my point is that I knew in my heart by 4 months that Sam had autism anyway.

    I too have my own theories of Autism and vaccines, just from my experience with the autism community in which I live. There is a vast majority of families here that are into chelation and biomed. In watching those children come in and out of their therapies, and from other reports, my personal theory, is this:

    Yes some kids get diagnosed with autism and also test with high mercury levels. Their symptoms contain autistic behaviors, so of course they would be diagnosed as that. So, the ones that get “cured”, truly were allergic to the vaccines, and were absorbed into their systems much differentally than typical children. I don’t believe those kids were ever truly autistic and then “cured”.

    I feel sorry for the kids in my community whose parents are so angry and so busy going to “natural alternative/biomed conferences”, supplementing their children with unknown herbs and vitamins of which no official studies have been done on to see just how much liver damage they will cause, running them to their DAN doctors weekly to check blood levels, running them here and there to cure them, that I don’t see their joy in their child. I don’t see the acceptance and love for who their beautiful child is. I feel so sad for these children. I feel sad that some day they may know that their parents could not accept them for who they were. There is a huge difference between trying to “fix” someone and making accomadations for them to enjoy life more, by helping them with speech and such. I am sorry to babble, but in my community, the parents that do those things, also blame vaccines for EVERYTHING! Their anger is hard to see past. I don’t believe anger has every helped bring peace to a situation.

    As to your question about if Sam is high functioning. He is not Asperger’s, he is not PDD-NOS, he has classic Autism as stated earlier. I do not like to use the word higher functioning and lower functioning. It has been more and more uncomfortable for me to use. Our children in this community have autism, to define them as high or low is not words of choice that should describe who these beautiful individuals are.

    What autoimmune disease does your child have, since they don’t have autism? I am glad you are able to find resources that you need from this community though. If you ever have questions on understanding autism, I would be more than happy to help.

  • GTP

    Concerned parents/advocates are not anti-vaccine. Thimersol is a concern, but in itself not the sole issue. It is the cumulative affect of mercury exposure during critical neural development.

    Mercury is everywhere from the water we drink to the fish we eat. We are slowly poisoning ourselves.

    Roman civilation was so fond of its diverse uses of lead that they minimized the hazards it posed. Americans, like the Romans of yesteryear, are doing the same with mercury.

    History does repeat itself.

  • Mary

    Kristina (and Laura),

    My daughter has Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis. I can relate it directly to her one year old round of shots.

    Laura,

    Those are excellent points, and ones that I hadn’t considered as you’ve stated them.

    I too, as GTP said, don’t’ think mercury is our only concern. I think it’s the poisonous ingredients that “trigger” something in a body already genetically “predisposed” to something, such as arthritis and autism. My daughter never would have developed arthritis at one without the vaccines. However, she may have developed it later in life, maybe when she wasn’t growing and her legs would be the same length. Or maybe after her formative years so she could run and play like the other kids.

    In the grand scheme of life, she has something that I’ve managed to somewhat control with supplements, like joint juice and we cut down on her dairy intakes, she gets plenty of exercise she can do, etc.

    Laura,

    When I asked about getting shots from birth, it’s because I truly believe that some kids are born with autism, but I also believe it’s the buildup of toxic ingredients (formaldehyde) etc., that take a toll on our little babies.

    For example, the Hep B shot is given hours after birth, yet a babies kidneys and livers don’t start working until the second and third day of life, so where do those toxic chemicals go? IMO they go straight to the brain and they settle into the joints and for what? Hep B is a small number of babies that would get it: if mom had it, if they were exposed to a hospital setting where blood is a factor, if they were drug users or sexually promiscuous, so how and why does a brand new baby, born to regular old mom need a Hep B shot?

    They don’t. Always follow the money, our kids are inundated with vaccines they don’t need. I am not against vaccines per se, I am against the number of them and how young they are being given.

    Have you read (any of you) the Virus and the Vaccine?

    Have you read any books against vaccines? I read both, to make sure I am getting a well rounded picture.

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  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    GTP: Thanks for the reference to the Romans, with whom I started this next post.

    Thanks Mary for the information……vaccinves have certainly had questions attached to them since they were first used.

  • GTP

    True. The Romans were aware that lead caused serious health issues, even death. They (like society today) chose to ignore it or ignore the hazards it posed.

    Complex interplay of forces? Sure- The Roman empire failed for many reasons such as over-expansion. But, impaired thinking skills also contributed to the decline. It’s well documented about craziness among the Roman elite. Does anyone remember reading about Caligula?

    Lead contributes to impaired critical thinking skills as does mercury. Unfortunately our youngest are still paying the price today.

    I wonder in the future if someone will say Autism is an urban myth and theorize that bad mothering is the reason.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    GTP, I believe you refer to another urban myth that has been thoroughly discredited, and that has done as much harm as any heavy metals poisoning might do.

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  • Darryl

    “I took my son to have his flu shot this Fall and I cannot tell this to any of the autism parents in my community otherwise they’ll probably stop talking to me.”

    Yep, true for some of the parents I know too.

    On one of the autism-themed community forums I visit, someone posted that the autism-vaccine link had been 100% irrefutably proven. Somone challenged that position. The original poster called anyone who didn’t believe the “proof” an uninformed idiot, then went on a rant about how studies which don’t support the link are all part of a massive conspiracy funded by drug companies. What really surprised me is that just about everyone else who joined the thread supported her! From what I’ve seen both online and face to face, a clear majority of parents of autistic children believe vaccines caused or strongly contributed to their children’s autism.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    I have noticed the same. I’ve also noticed the same pattern of someone says “vaccines don’t cause autism” and some very vocal advocates for the opposite jump in and keep arguing, and cite various conspiray theories. I think those who don’t support the vaccine-autism theory can feel a little intimidated.

  • Darryl

    Perhaps it is easier for some people to deal with a life they didn’t expect (for themselves AND their children) by explaining its source. Taking away their tidy explanation also takes away their (false) sense of control.

    I also wonder if the vaccine theory resonates with so many because it mirrors feelings of guilt and victimization that are common among parents of autistic children.

  • Mary

    Darryl:

    I don’t think so. After all, if there were other reasons for autism, then parents would do that. But there is a real connection, and the case has actually been weakened by only blaming mercury.

    There is no tidy explanation, for any of us, and actually I see it just the opposite: Admitting that there may be a connection takes the control away from you that are against the connection and the control our corp.’s and govt. control us with.

  • Darryl

    I leave the door open for there to be a connection between autism and vaccines. I’m not disputing the link. I’m not “against the connection.” I personally believe that it is entirely possible that some cases of autism – perhaps a majority – may have been induced by vaccination. It’s unlikely in my mind, but entirely possible. The accuracy of the vaccine theory is pretty much irrelevant to my comment above.

    What I _am_ addressing is the culture that has grown around the vaccine connection. The percentage of parents who hold this particular viewpoint and the adamancy with which they defend that viewpoint is unusual. For so many other topics the public just swallows what they are spoon fed. We jump right on board with the media on everything from fashion sense to attitudes about healthcare to family values to just about everything else, but when it comes to the origin of autism there’s a mass mutiny. Why? The evidence which supports the vaccine link, even if it is completely accurate, does not explain why so many parents hold this viewpoint. After all, even in the presence of an infinite amount of evidence the public will ignore it if they don’t like what they see. There are studies which support the vaccine connection, but that’s not why so many parents preach the anti-vaccine gospel with a religious fervor the crusadors would have been proud of. The ferocity of the attacks against anyone who dares to challenge the vaccine link is breathtaking. It is definitely an interesting phenomenon, regardless of where the truth lies. I was simply suggesting one possible explanation for the phenomenon.

    Maybe I should explain a little more. I’ve been involved with a support group for parents of disabled children. The children have many types of disabilities, not just autism. Among the most common feelings I see in the group is guilt. Parents feel guilty regardless of whether they had anything to do with their child’s disability. Even the adopted father of a so-called crack baby said he felt guilty and couldn’t explain why. Just as common is a feeling of victimization. Parents feel victimized and then try to explain why they feel that way. They usually project their victimization onto God, fate, or even their own kids. It isn’t a rational feeling, it just comes. Since I know for a fact how common the feelings of guilt and victimization are, and I know how our brains tend to come up with an explanation for our feelings (feel first, explain second), it seems like more than coincidence that vaccines provide a really convenient outlet for both of those feelings. We get to explain our guilt because we chose to have our children vaccinated. We get to explain our feelings of victimization because “the system” tricked us into giving our kids those shots.

    My theory could be dead wrong, it’s just a possiblity. And again, it has nothing to do with whether the vaccine theory is right. It applies if the anti-vaccine viewpoint is correct, and it applies if the anti-vaccine viewpoint is not correct.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    I see what you’re saying a bit better.

    Yes, there is guilt for parents. But frankly, even parents with healthy children feel guilt, such as when kids seem to “go wrong.”

    I’m not sure if victimization is an accurate definition for the way I feel, but I do feel that we are being let down as a society and the more research I do, the more I feel that way, not less.

    For example, the Virus and the Vaccine is a book that exposes the polio virus as the reason we have SV40 simian virus in our society and as a reason for specifics cancer. How is this okay with people? The book has been out since 2004 and yet the amount of press it has rec’d (unless I’m not aware) has been teenie tiny — where is the outrage at a vaccine that was forced on our children for forty years that caused cancer?

    What kind of a book will be written 40-50 years from now about the ingredients we are injecting into our babies at BIRTH?

    To me there is an epidemic in autoimmunity disorders, such as arthritis, and yet there are either people on one side or the other when there is room in the middle. Yes, vaccines seem to have changed our society. But there is also another Yes, that in that change they have also made us one of the most disease ridden societies in our existence.

    And just try to get the numbers on vaccine injured kids, it’s next to impossible, and if we could get it, the numbers would be so much lower than reality that its’ sad.

    I’m not a victim, my child is. Her arthritis was triggered by a vaccine – and it’s a proven connection. It’s the rubella part of the MMR vaccine, where is the outrage? Where is the accountability? Why can’t we sue the vaccine makers? Why is there so much profit in vaccines, yet parents are made to feel ashamed if they don’t vaccinate their kids?

  • Darryl

    “For example, the Virus and the Vaccine is a book that exposes the polio virus as the reason we have SV40 simian virus in our society and as a reason for specifics cancer. How is this okay with people? The book has been out since 2004 and yet the amount of press it has rec’d (unless I’m not aware) has been teenie tiny — where is the outrage at a vaccine that was forced on our children for forty years that caused cancer?”

    This makes for a pretty good example of what I’ve been trying to say. Information like this comes out and the vast majority of the public will ignore it (myself included). Why is the proposed autism/vaccine link not equally ignored? Instead people espouse the idea with gusto. Regardless of the true relationship between autism and vaccines, it’s interesting.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    AHHH, it’s taking me a while, but now I really get what you mean.

    Interesting! And perplexing as well. Why is Autism the singled out disease of choice?

    Maybe the damage to the child (in some perceptions. I know there is one mother on here that chooses to think that her child is not “damaged” at all) is so heinous to most parents that this just stands out.

    I know that my daughter’s condition is not the worst thing that could ever happen to her, or me for that matter, and that’s what I’m teaching her. She can control it to a certain extent and she is supposed to be able to “grow” out of it by 18, but if my child were affected with autism and there were not light at the end of any tunnels, I might be a whole different parent!

    Interesting . . .

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Darryl wrote, a few comments back:

    I also wonder if the vaccine theory resonates with so many because it mirrors feelings of guilt and victimization that are common among parents of autistic children.

    I think there is something in this: The pattern I see in so many narratives of parents of autistic children is of feeling helpless and “victimized” as one’s child “slips into autism” and then, after diagnosis, the parent becomes a very active advocate, perhaps as if to challenge any feelings of guilt.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    Kristina,

    I think the theory has legs, but I also think that it trivializes what a parent with an autistic child is going through. They aren’t just looking to justify their own hurt and anger (in my opinion) they are looking to change the CAUSE so that other parents don’t have to go through the same thing.

    As an advocate against some people getting vaccines, I won’t change a thing in my daughter’s life, but I could change the life of another child whose mother reads my words, recognizes the autoimmunity issues in her own family and decides to delay vaccines, or even decides that vaccines aren’t for her kids.

    It doesn’t give me any less guilt to talk about our condition and what caused it, I was still the mother, I still let them vaccinate her, at a health department no less, who didn’t say squat about “who should not get vaccines.”

    I’m not trying to justify my existence by now being an advocate, I’m trying to change the system and I’m trying to alert other mothers that their child could be next. I think that’s what parents of autistic children are doing as well.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    The day to day narratives of life raising our children, autistic and otherwise, show how “untrivial” our life with them is, however it came to be.

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  • M.M.

    I don’t understand the logic some people are using here. Several people here have argued that their child couln’t possibly have gotten autism from vaccinations because their vaccinations did not contain mercury. Why are you assuming that it’s only the “mercury factor” that is causing autism? What about the overload to the immune system that the vaccines are causing in the first place? What about other non-mercury factors? And why are you so quick to arrogantly dismiss the thousands of parents who witnessed a profound change in their child immediatey following a vaccination? There is a connection. We just don’t know what it is yet.

    There were also some posts from parents of austistic children who gave their children flu shots and said they couldn’t tell their friends. I, too, would be reluctant to tell my friends that I was a child-abuser, because that’s exactly what you are.

  • http://www.mysamiam.blogspot.com Laura Cottington

    M.M.~
    I am one of (quote)…
    some posts from parents of autistic children who gave their children flu shots and said they couldn’t tell their friends. I, too, would be reluctant to tell my friends that I was a child-abuser, because that’s exactly what you are.(end quote)

    First, I wanted to clarify for me, that my earlier comment was stated as “my autism community” which does not mean friends in all cases. It means people in my area, whom I am acquainted with through speech/ot therapy sessions, school support groups, local agencies, etc…with a small portion of these community people resorting to interventions I would not choose for my son. I made the statement that I did, as this same group of people are weekly injecting untested/unapproved treatments into their children, as well as having them take vast amounts of herbal remedies (that cause liver damage) but would never think of injecting one flu shot. That seems negligent to me.

    My husband and I have chosen not to use angry energy blaming and making excuses for our sons autism. Anger is only one letter short of danger. Instead, our energies are best spent in helping him adapt to this world (and educating others so they can adapt and accept him) so that he may enjoy life fully.

    “He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else”~Benjamin Franklin

  • Phil Schwarz

    Laura, it sounds like your local community — like so many across North America — could use more support groups that do *not* have a group culture of pressure-to-cure; that support those questioning conventional wisdom; that support the goals and priorities of autistic people themselves; and that facilitate practical problem-solving to mitigate and circumvent specific handicaps.

    Estee Klar Wolfond’s organization, The Autism Acceptance Project ( http://www.taaproject.com ), has started such a support group in Toronto. I would like to see her model replicated throughout North America.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    I wasn’t going to say anymore on this post, but for all the people who doubt that the parents actually KNOW what is harming their children, have any of you ever wondered why societies that are not using vaccines and feeding their children highly processed poisons, don’t have the same issues with autism that we seem to have?

    Has anyone considered that autism is a compilation of abuses that we subject ourselves to (as women who are literally breeding) and our children?

    It’s a no-brainer for me, but then I used to believe in Vaccines until my own child was harmed. I guess that’s what it will take for many others. They have to see it, feel it, cry about it and then do reasearch before they will ever believe that something they believed in so fully could be wrong.

    Stop accepting the damage to our children, start questioning the origins of that damage, start questioning the ingredients in your child’s food, start questioning your own health and the health of the ones you love. Stop buying into garbage for the sake of making someone else rich.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Thanks, Mary. Autism is found throughout the world. I think one has to be caseful how one uses a word like “abuses” in reference to autism causation, due to the history of autism aetiology.

  • http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk Kev

    “have any of you ever wondered why societies that are not using vaccines and feeding their children highly processed poisons, don’t have the same issues with autism that we seem to have?”

    Which societies are these?

    You know what I love about people’s comments like yours Mary? The idea that you believe what you’ve done is research.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    No, research is if I could travel there myself and see for myself the differences in our children from theirs.

    However, some of what I’ve done is first hand research. I have one child fully vaccinated, with a horrible response, but I was too young to know. One child vaccinated to her first birthday, horrible response, and one child not vaccinated at all.

    I’ve read more than a handful of books and papers and talked with parents of injured children. What have you done that consitutes “research.”

    The societies are:
    Vilcabamba
    Hunza
    Okinawa

    Again, before you question what I have and have not done, perhaps you should post what you’ve done.

    My contention is that we are abusing our kids through the food we feed them, the lack of exercise they get, the total vaccines we are pushing into them and more.

    I consider it abuse, and I’m doing what I can to change those aspects of my children’s lives.

    Yes, autism has been blamed on mothers in the past (but thanks for the big word) and it’s my contention that mothers may be missing something — such as vitamins or minerals.

    We were wrong about the “refridgerator” (sp) mothers, so who says we aren’t wrong about chemicals and vaccines?

    Autism is not normal. Period.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    Laura,

    What on earth makes you think that someone who knows how to make an herbal remedy doesn’t know that huge amounts could cause some liver damage?

    And did you know it would take gallons of the said herbal remedy (in most cases) to do any damage.

    Why place blame?

    Because our govt., is still injecting kids with more vaccines today than ever before. That’s why blame needs to be placed. IT needs to change.

    I don’t blame parents. I blame the complete and utter indoctrination that we’ve suffered since the 1940s into the way of believing that vaccines are the end all be all of life.

    There was a woman who is a 102 today who made a hole-in-one. I don’t know her, but I’m willing to put my money on the fact that she’s had little to no vaccines!

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    “Autism is not normal”: I do not believe this to be the case.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    Based on what Kristina?

    Animals, when given the proper amounts of vitamins, sustenance, minerals, clean water, clean living conditions and two parents free from disease, are born “normal” (which is a relative term, I agree).

    When an animal is unfit for breeding, the farmer, rancher, breeder, culls this animal and does not allow it to breed any longer. Clearly, we cannot do this with humans, but the point is that we have humans (probably myself included) who are not at 100%, but still make babies.

    Through the years, the abuses from vaccines, chemicals, processed foods, overwork, stress, unclean air, etc., take their toll and it’s showing through the sicknesses of our children.

    That’s my theory – but I”m not a doctor, nor am I a scientist, so it’s worth about 2 cents.

    Autism is not a normal condition, nor has it ever been considered normal until this era. An era that tends to normalize anything and everything to make people “feel better.”

    I’m not saying that an autistic child cannot lead a great life. I’m saying that we had to turn the tide on what we will allow and what we won’t, or soon we’ll have a world full of disease and no one will remember what it was like before all this. IN fact, I’m pretty sure many people think that being diseased is a way of life. That it’s just part and parcel of being human, and it’s not.

    With the proper nutrition, exercise and family support many people live life without drugs, therapy or the constant onslaught of disease.

    Anyway, just my two cents. Take it or leave it. I’m not into changing the world, but I am into changing my family for the better. I just wish I’d have known all this when I first started having kids so none of them would even know what sugar tastes like and I would be healthier as well. But we all have to start somewhere and for me it was cutting vaccinations out of our lives.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Thanks for your comments, Mary.

    Based on this: “Normal” is a subjective category. The notion of “normal” has been shown to have arise in the Early Modern Period, as noted by disability studies scholar Lennard Davis. What is “normal” in one culture (making eye contact, for instance) may well not be in another (in some Asian cultures). It’s a little dangerous to assume that “normal” is some static category or way of being human. Unfortunately, it is not too long ago that persons of different races, ethnicities, and genders were not considered “normal.”

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    In this culture, autism was not “normal” until this era – and now it is being normalized into acceptance by sites like this.

    Instead of finding ways to prevent it, we pat each other on the back for accepting yet another disease that is changing the lives of our children.

    Can’t buy in . . .

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Autism was not identified until the previous century. Disability (physical as well as cognitive) and different types of difference (racial, ethnic, gender and sexual orientation) are alike being “normalized into acceptance.”

    Caveat emptor!

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    Kristina,

    I’m a bit confused on which side of the argument you are arguing for?

    I realize when it was recognized, I said it wasn’t “normalized” until this era, e.g. a time period dominated by a particular physical process.

    How does “buyer beware” figure into this conversation? You lost me.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    I was following on your “don’t buy in” comment. I am always curious to hear from all sides.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    Ahhhh, referring to my own comment…. my apologies for not being able to keep up!! LOL

    Glad to hear that you’re still open to both sides, it’s rare.

    I too am still open to some vaccines actually working, but dead set against the amount of vaccines we are injecting our little bitty babies with!!

    Happy Easter week to you – off to do some of the housework I can’t seem to stop procrastinating on!

  • http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk Kev

    “The societies are:
    Vilcabamba
    Hunza
    Okinawa

    Again, before you question what I have and have not done, perhaps you should post what you’ve done.”

    And where are the double blind peer reviewed studies that show low vaccine uptake and no autism?

    “I realize when it was recognized, I said it wasn’t “normalized” until this era, e.g. a time period dominated by a particular physical process.”

    And as Kristina tried politely to point out to you – it was once ‘normalized’ to be racist, sexist, homophobic et al. I’m going to suggest to you we’ve bettered ourselves since those times. Maybe you disagree.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    Hey Kev,

    First, your manner of conversing leaves quite a bit to be desired. I will try not to lower myself to your level as I point out that I am arguing against normalizing autism. IN other words, I don’t consider racism to be normal and it was “normalized” within its own time period. I argue that autism is not a normal condition.

    I notice that instead of propping up your own posts with actual books read, degrees earned, perhaps your own child being injured, you attack me and ask me where the double blind studies are — Hey Kev……….. I don’t need double blind studies to show me something that I can figure out for myself.

    My child went in and got a vaccine -
    My child developed JRA less than 30 days later –

    My child is affected forever from that –

    Same for parents of autistic kids who KNOW that the vaccine was the cause, or perhaps you are more comfortable with the word “trigger” that sent their child into a land they cannot rescue them from.

  • http://www.rettdevil.com Kassiane

    I consider autism to be a normal part of the human (and indeed, animal-ever meet a cat?) condition.

    My family, if you trace back, is full autistics and “cousins”. I’m the most obvious but I am also the only epileptic, the most premature by far, and the only one with a MecP2 mutation. Regardless, autism & relation conditions are thick in my family–starting with the duke who burned his house in support of the French Revolution or something like that. He lived in CROATIA. That’s pretty cousin-y, at least.

    Difference isn’t a bad thing. Aren’t you glad the visible color spectrum goes from red to violet? I sure am…

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    To be sure autism is also genetic. I am not denying that at all.

    Yes, I am glad for the differences in us all. I’m not arguing for a same society, I’m arguing the amount of vaccines we force into our babies.

    I think this conversation has gone on for so long, the original point has been lost some time ago.

    And since you brought up animals, they are also dying due to vaccines – cancer being the number one cause. Liver failure, kidney failure, etc., well documented and written about quite a bit. Many people don’t vaccinate their animals either.

  • http://www.gettingbacktonatural.blogspot.com Mary

    I forgot to ask Kassiane:

    Were you vaccinated as a baby? If so, do you recall which ones? How many? How young you would have been?

    Will you vaccinate your own children, should you have them?

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    I’m open to listen; I think the vaccine-autism theory has caused a lot of energy to be spent on concerns that detract from the real issues.

  • http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk Kev

    “…I am arguing against normalizing autism. IN other words, I don’t consider racism to be normal and it was “normalized” within its own time period. I argue that autism is not a normal condition.”

    Non-whites were once considered to be not normal. Homosexuality was considered a psychiatric illness just like autism is until the 1970′s. Emily Pankhurst was considered mad and institutionalised by men. I find your view disturbing and contextually flawed. I’ll suggest to you once more that we’ve improved as a species since these times. Hopefully we can move past your kind of prejudice soon as well.

    “I notice that instead of propping up your own posts with actual books read, degrees earned, perhaps your own child being injured,”

    What has any of this to do with your claim that you know of societies that don’t vaccinate and have no autism? I’m simply asking you to back that up with factual data. Can you or not?

    “you attack me and ask me where the double blind studies are — Hey Kev……….. I don’t need double blind studies to show me something that I can figure out for myself.”

    I see. People used to ‘know’ the sun orbited the Earth. They used to ‘know’ the earth was flat. Maybe you should rely less on your personal anecdotes which mean precisely zero and start looking at some science.

    “Same for parents of autistic kids who KNOW that the vaccine was the cause”

    They don’t KNOW any such thing. They might have a very strong opinion but that is not the same as factual knowledge.

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  • Mike H

    Going back to the original intent of this discussion to present stories of “how a vaccine did not cause my child’s autism,” I can say with conviction that a vaccine did not cause my child’s autism. My son was born premature and suffered from lack of oxygen during and immediately after birth. Such oxygen deprivation at birth has been linked to cognitive disorders and Autism. The signs of his autism, both behavioral and biological, were visible as early as 4 months old.

    As for the people who KNOW what they saw – the child got a shot and then became autistic, it is possible to be certain about something and still be wrong (did we ever find WMDs in Iraq?). First, this type of regressive Autism is reported in only ~20% of the cases. If the MMR or total vaccine accumulation over 2-5 years is the cause, then why is there no regression in the other 80%? Rather, the skills never developed from birth to begin with in these children. Just because two events happen around the same time does not mean that one caused the other. For example, people eat more ice cream in the Summer, and more people drown in the Summer. That does not mean that eating ice cream causes drowning. Additionally, remember that Autism is primarily a neurological condition. While some Autistics have associated digestive probelms (reports say 20-30%) and some have immunological problems, ALL autistics have neurological issues, be they sensory integration, speech processing and expression, or motor difficulties. There are many known examples of genetic regressive neurological conditions that take years to develop – Parkinsons, Alzheimers, and Multiple Sclerosis are a few. It is likely that regressive Autism is just that, a regressive neurological condition encoded by genetics.

    If you really look at what the scientific community is saying, the consensus is that Autism in general has a genetic basis that might be triggered by environmental factors. The vaccine link as THE INDISPUTABLE cause of all Autism is not supported by any evidence. However, it is possible that a component of any given vaccine may be the susceptibility trigger for a small percentage of cases. Estimates put this at a fraction of 1% of cases, which is too small a number to positively verify in any study.

    The fact remaims that independent research performed in several countries across 3 continents have all shown no link between vaccines and Autism. For exaple, in Japan, the MMR vaccine was only given between 1988 and 1993. There, the incidence of Autism has continued to increase after the MMR was stopped. Other studies have looked at vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations living in the same city and found no difference in the incidence of Autism.

    If you really want to look for a trigger, then environmental pollution is really gaining acceptance. A 2005 study from the University of Texas Health Science Center showed an increase in the chance of developing Autism correlated with the amount of pollution generated by local coal burning power plants. Other reports have shown that the rate of increase in Autism correlates with the rate of global warming caused by pollution (it does not correlate with vaccination rates). As one person pointed out, the rate of Autism appears to be higher in industrialized nations. Industrialized nations also have significantly more pollution. The studies showing no difference in incidence between vaccinated and non-vaccinated people in the same city would also support this hypothesis since those people would all be subject to similar pollutants.

    I am not professing to know the causes of Autism. I do not belive that vaccines are the cause. I think in the end Autism will turn out to be similar to cancer – genetic in nature, with some mutaions causing immediate Autism, and others being caused by a combination of various genes and/or environmental exposures. To date there are about 20 genes that have been linked to Autism. The key will be finding identifying what these genes do and how they work together.

  • passionlessDrone

    Hi Mike H -

    “Other studies have looked at vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations living in the same city and found no difference in the incidence of Autism. ”

    This sounds like a very interesting study, indeed one I did not think existed. Can you provide references?

    Thanks!

    -pD

  • Mary

    It’s so frustrating for me to read that “environmental factors” may be at play in Autism. Uh, no duh.

    And toxins in the environment are harmful, but the toxins in vaccines aren’t?

    Consider what vaccines or toxins you and your spouse had in their body before conception. Then consider what was ingested, including water, during pregnancy — especially any vaccines.

    Then consider that as soon as your child was born, premature, they started pumping your poor baby full of antiboitics, vaccines, drugs and more. Breastfeeding would have been limited to not at all and formula is full of ingredients like aspartame and msg.

    Then consider that your baby would have gotten the 2-month old vaccines and the 4 month old vaccines — yet you continue to back the fact that vaccines could not have caused your babies condition.

    Uh, yeah. It could have.

    Why do human egos continue to rage against common sense. Do you really, really need someone else to tell you what you can see for yourself?

    There is no such thing as a genetic epidemic — it’s all about toxins and what are the toxins that almost every child with autism have in common? THe toxins in vaccines.

    They will never “Find” a link between vaccines and autism (even though many already have) because the lawsuits would cripple our economy and shatter the trust that we’ve put in our govt.

    Read The Virus and the Vaccine — illuminating and well researched.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Mike H, thank you for your thoughtful comment—I have heard, too, that as many as 100 genes might be linked to autism. Arthur Allens Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine’s Greatest Lifesaver is further reading, if you have not already read it.

  • Mary

    Agreed, Allen’s book is a must read for both sides of the argument. Unfortunately, he puts too much trust and loyalty into believing that vaccines “saved” the world.

    How about this, IF there are 100 genes that are affected by autism — then it’s likely those same genes are being damaged by toxins.

  • Mary

    By the way Mike — vaccines have been PROVEN to cause cancer.

    We already know what causes cancer, we just aren’t smart enough to prevent it — we’d rather douse our world in chemicals, pesticides and fake food and then scratch our heads and go “why on earth did I get cancer?”

    Again, cancer has been proven to be caused by viruses in vaccines — read The Virus and the Vaccine — heavily researched and footnoted by two very well respected journalists. The virus is SV40 — a simian virus that was given to people via the Polio vaccine.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Mary, it’s very nice to hear from you again.

  • Mary

    Thanks Kristina — guess I can’t stay away!

  • Mike H

    Passionless Drone,

    Here are two references to check out:

    Fombonne, E, et al. “Pervasive developmental disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: prevalence and limks with autism.” Pediatrics, 2006 July; 118(1):139-150.

    Uchiyama, T, et al. “MMR vaccine and regressive autism spectrum disorders: negative results presented from Japan.” J. Autism Dev. Disord. 2007, February; 37(2):210-217.

  • Mike H

    Mary,

    Thank you for the flaming venom. It is interesting that you accuse me of not being able to see the forest for the trees, yet you yourself refiuse to accept the overwhelming body of evidence that repeatedly shows that vaccines do not cause autism. Couldn’t it be possible that it actually is something else? Your rant against me is a prime example of why there is no rational dialogue on this subject and why parents like myself and Laura cannot have conversations with others in the Autism community.

    My son who almost dies at birth is autistic. I do not believe for one minute that vaccines had anything to do with causing his autism. Why can’t you accept that?

  • Mary

    The Japan results, take a good long hard look at the graph. It goes up right after the vaccines are stopped — right?

    The vaccines would have been given before that spike, they would have still been used in smaller clinics, and after the “spike” that everyone acts like it derails the whole argument, the graph goes DOWN.

    Now, I could come back with a dozen studies, and or references, even the last article in Scientific American that claims autism could be caused by too much TV. But my COMMON SENSE tells me that TV is not the reason we have 1 in every 100 child with autism.

    You just will not believe it — so we’re at a catch 22. I’ve given you every reason to understand that a lack of breastfeeding, a lack of nutrient rich food, our adherence to pesticides and toxic vaccines are the reason for Austism, ALS, Parkinson’s, and more, but you’re stuck on what the “experts” that you deem appropriate tell you.

    You know what I think”? I think this is Darwin’s way of culling out the followers………….

  • Mary

    Sorry Mike, it wasn’t meant as flaming venom. I get just as frustrated as you do, and I have a vaccine injured daughter as well.

    You cannot take just vaccines or at least I cannot and blame everything on them. It also has to do with whatever mom was taking — my friend had three miscarriages from her ADD medication, yet she kept taking it. I don’t get it. Everything we do, everything we eat, everything we put on our bodies and breathe through our nose has the ability to harm us, yet thousands of parents think that the toxins in vaccines “couldn’t be the reason.”

    How often and how much did your wife get vaccines, especially the flu shot, or if she works in health care, the Hep B shot, the Hep A shot, and others that they are forced to get. The TB test, the tetanus shot, etc. HOw depleted was her body before she ever even got pregnant?

    Did she get the rhogam shots for example?

    Yes, it’s totally possible that the lack of oxygen at birth is the reason for YOUR son’s autism, but that doesn’t discount the damage vaccines are doing and have done.

  • Mike H

    Mary,

    I never said that vaccines are perfect and risk free. Every medical procedure has risks. Even a simple blood draw can lead to a deadly infection.

    I had not heard about SV40 in the polio vaccine causing cancer, but that is plausible. Other viruses are known to cause cancer. In fact, the first known cause of cancer was the sarcomavirus, and human papilloma virus causes ~ 70% of all cervical cancer.

    To state that we know the causes of cancer is misleading. Some cancers are cuased purely by specific mutations that are passed on (such as retinoblastoma), which others require a cascade of events and mutations involving multiple genesto occurs. While some genes have been associated with an increased risk of cancer, they are not the sole cause. For example, the BRCA1 gene is associated wiht breast cancer, yet it is only found in 5% of breast cancer patients. We do know many chemicals and toxins that can cause cancer, but the biology of how they cause cancer is still not understood.

  • Mary

    Yes, cancer is very multi-faceted (sp) and it takes a degree almost to understand all the ins and outs of it, however, if we know that chemicals cause it, you’d think that as humans, we’d ban chemicals, but we don’t. We make up some random “well if you only use this much you’ll be fine” argument based on some half baked study by people being paid to find a safe amount and we call that science.

    I am sorry about your son, that must have been very frightening.

    I feel the same way about my one year old getting JRA.

    If vaccines are perfect or risk free, and if they are triggering up to 31 known autoimmunity disorders that can literally cripple or kill you — then what have we gained?

    I’ll take a two week case of whooping cough or measles over arthritis any day. THe diseases that we’ve been brainwashed to believe are killers, weren’t.

    Anyway, I gotta run and get my daughter from volleyball, but I beg you, before you vaccinate yourself, your wife or your children again to start reading books just like The Virus and the Vaccine.

    Best.

  • long day’s journey into acceptance

    Caveat: Careful befriending “Mary”. She’ll post your private medical information on the internet for all to see. Nice.

  • Mary

    BTW, here’s my opinion on the HPV vaccine –

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/03/12/EDGC7N734I1.DTL&hw=MaryAnna+Clemons&sn=001&sc=1000

    It’s another marketing scheme to make money. Plain and simple, imo.

  • Mike H

    Mary,

    I agree, we have a catch 22. Let’s call a truce.

    I also saw the report about TV causing autism, and I fell on the floor laughing. I guess we can agree on some things.

    I am sorry that your child was injured by a vaccine. As I said, I do agree that vaccines are not perfect or risk free.

  • Mary

    I have more than one best friend, and you’re right it probably wasn’t very nice to post that.

    She knows what caused her issues, and she is okay with her choices, my point was simply that as adults, humans, parents, breeding women of all ages, we ingest things that are dangerous to the babies we plan to make, or have made.

  • Mary

    Mike — deal.

    ;)

  • long day’s journey into acceptance

    “triggering up to 31 known autoimmunity disorders”

    Citations for this, please!

    “you’d think that as humans, we’d ban chemicals”

    Ban “chemicals”? Really? Maybe “humans” know a little something you don’t.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Back to autism: As kids grow up and into adults, it’ll be interesting to see if interest in vaccines and autism lessens, and more attention is paid to what’s needed: Teaching our kids to live good lives.

  • Mary

    Ahh yes, the natural chemical argument. Ok, let’s be more specific, you’d think we would ban CANCER Causing chemicals that only benefit corporations.

    Citations for the autoimmunity disorders, read any book on autoimmunity, especially books written by the people that actually have the disease, and you’ll notice a recurring issue of vaccines.

    My own daughter’s arthritis can be linked directly to her MMR shot. In addition, if you go to the MMR manufacturers (I don’t have time to google it again) you’ll see on the pharma insert that arthritis is LISTED as a condition that can occur after the MMR shot.

    You believe what you want, and I’ll believe what’s right in front of my face………..

  • Mary

    I would rather teach corporations to care about what they produce that harms others.

    Like the Mexican mothers picking fruit and vegetables in California whose babies are born with birth defects, autism and learning disorders due to the chemicals they come in contact with every day. They have little choice and almost no voice.

  • Cliff

    I’ve got to be a little careful in saying anything here, because it seems people are very… involved.

    My autism (not in terms of the diagnosis, but that there was a serious difference) was identified far earlier than my vaccinations (within the month, conservatively), and there was little of anything to suggest chemically anything happened. My genetics, however, could likely be traced (mostly on my Dad’s side). But there wasn’t anything chemically odd.

    Now, what I want to ask is why genetics, without a trigger, can’t explain autism. Depending on the structure regarding the nature of being recessive or dominant, and in various ways, it really could have been introduced and increased by that means in the way that would be called “epidemic”, and it still could be possible if the
    “rise” in autism is largely just an issue of social consciousness.

    I don’t see, on the other hand, how vaccines are responsible if the vaccination rates go down and the autism rates go up. Shouldn’t that imply the independence of the two? Less triggers, more autism? Or why would autism still go up? (I’m not exactly a statistician, so these are not rhetorical; I’m actually asking these questions).

    What’s interesting, though, if you could compare genetic tests with vaccination records. If we have a number of parents who have taken the same vaccination, have the genetic basis for autism, and yet are not autistic, we’d have a pretty good basis for saying vaccine isn’t any kind of “trigger” for autism, and likewise with autistic parents who have had the same vaccine. You might even go so far to give a parent the vaccine, if you wanted to stomp right over an ethical line.

    Now, there are some other sticky things here. I’ve never been convinced always by mainstream science, preferring logic flow. The other thing, though, is this universal appeal to “common sense”. What part of autism appeals directly to common sense? Why would something that, in several ways, defies typical social understanding be judged on typical social understanding?

    I’m not being personal, and I’m interested in hearing from everyone and every side involved, but these are several questions I had for the posters, whom I have come to enjoy reading.

    Cliff

  • Mary

    So, Cliff, if I”m understanding your right, you’re saying you never had any vaccinations before being diagnosed?

    How about your mother?

    I guess for me — and I am no statician either, I don’t believe it’s better diagnosing and I don’t believe it’s genetic because it’s the first time in the history of humans that we’ve been confronted with such an epidemic of one type of condition – other than cancer, which I also liken to vaccine use.

    The sub categories of both autism and cancer are many and varied, and almost as soon as you think you “may” have wrapped your head around either one, you’re thrown off by someone’s new “study” or claim.

    I really, truly contend that we don’t know as much as we think we know. We are simply as naive and clumsy as the caveman appears to us. We are walking in a dark room without a light, yet ego, the great EGO, makes most humans THINK they know all there is to know, such as our esteemed scientists.

    We don’t.

    I think as soon as we realize that it’s not just one thing and let go of our egos and assumptions (including myself) then we can truly start seeing life for what it is and what it isn’t.

    And no, I”m not a tree hugging liberal………just in case my rambling sent anyone in that direction. I’m not a right wing, God makes everything go around person either……

    I give, but you asked some good questions cliff and you jumped in, so I thought I’d take a few minutes to give my two cents before bed!@

  • Cliff

    Not for my mother, either, any time during the pregnancy, though perhaps much earlier in life.

    I have another question, then; there is current thought that the lighter of color skin was a genetic aspect that was introduced (via mutation) into a population, and because it happened to be a dominant, completely spread throughout that population (I need to find the referent, read it a while back). Similar might be the decrease in blue eyes in favor of darker colors like brown. In what ways would autism be different and why? There might be other examples I’m not thinking of, but that comes to mind.

    I am in agreement regarding the fact that we assume things and do not know all that we really might. I suppose, though, that we can only try and question what we believe and understand, and come through with a personal answer because, in the end, that’s all we have.

    Oh, I hadn’t I assumed anything about your politics!

    I’m interested in your answers.

    Cliff

  • Cliff

    Actually, I need to clarify. I wasn’t diagnosed until I was three. But, almost at birth (saying at birth is complicated) I showed extreme sensitivity to sensory input (physically flinched whenever going under a light, a feat when there isn’t much muscle strength to speak for), and I was also not receptive to social interaction, all of which was recorded before vaccination.

  • passionlessDrone

    Hi Mike H -

    “Fombonne, E, et al. “Pervasive developmental disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: prevalence and limks with autism.” Pediatrics, 2006 July; 118(1):139-150.

    Uchiyama, T, et al. “MMR vaccine and regressive autism spectrum disorders: negative results presented from Japan.” J. Autism Dev. Disord. 2007, February; 37(2):210-217″

    These studies appear to show a lack of association between the MMR and autism rates; but this is a far, far cry from showing:

    “Other studies have looked at vaccinated and non-vaccinated populations living in the same city and found no difference in the incidence of Autism. ”

    The controls in the studies you cited had plenty of vaccines; just no MMR.

    Thanks though!

    - pD

  • Mary

    FYI — if anyone has any information to dispute this post, I’d love to know about it. I’m at a loss as to how to qualify that Dr. Hilleman really was who this video says he was? This post came through on one of the lists I subscribe to.
    #######

    A stunning, previously censored segment of an interview with Dr. Maurice
    Hilleman, the world’s most renowned vaccine expert, who was Chief of Merck’s
    vaccine division, has been posted on Youtube.
    http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=2MTifzl8BOI

    Dr. Hilleman, who developed the Mumps, Rubella and Measles vaccines, said:
    “Vaccines are the bargain basement technology of the 20th century.”

    In the taped interview (with about 6 Merck executives in the room, their
    nervous laughter audible in the tape) Dr. Hilleman explains how in his
    search for uninfected monkeys, Merck imported green monkeys from Africa.
    Those monkeys, it turned out, were carrying the AIDS virus:
    “I didn’t know we were importing AIDS.”

    Responding to the question, “so, it was you who introduced the AIDS virus to
    this country?” He said, YES.

    Dr. Hilleman also acknowledged that he discovered that the Sabine polio
    vaccine (manufactured by Merck) was infected with the SV-40 cancer virus.
    In the process of developing vaccines Merck scientists are shown to blithely
    disregarded public safety as they conducted massive tests exposing millions
    of unsuspecting people to wild viruses. Dr. Hilleman acknowledged that the
    cancer infected polio vaccine had been tested in massive field trials in
    Russia, then in the U.S.

    The issues raised in this candid interview raise serious doubts about the
    propaganda the public has been fed about the safety of vaccines.
    Vaccines that have been promoted as “safe and effective” miraculous cures
    have been infecting (possibly) millions of people with cancer, leukemia, and
    AIDS.

    The interview was conducted by Dr. Edward Shorter, Professor of the History
    of Medicine and Professor of Psychiatry, University of Toronto.
    I checked the authenticity of the tape with Dr. Shorter who informed me that
    he did it when preparing a PBS series called “The Health Century.”
    Doubleday published a companion volume of the same title in 1987.

    Dr. Shorter deposited the entire tape of the interview, including portions
    omitted from the book, along with other interviews in the National Library
    of Medicine.

    The uncovered facts should prompt a reexamination of the advisability of US
    mandatory vaccine policies–

    The person who posted this censored portion of the interview on Youtube is
    Dr. Leonard Horowitz, a controversial and prolific healthcare expert with
    multiple academic degrees–including 3 doctorates.
    See: http://www.tetrahed ron.org/aboutus. html

    In his forthcoming documentary film, “In Lies We Trust: The CIA, Hollywood &
    Bioterrorism, ” Dr. Horowitz examines official directives for national
    preparedness against outbreaks, nuclear explosions, and other disasters. A
    critical examination of what officials are saying and not telling that
    impacts the future of public health and urgent life-saving decisions every
    American is currently being encouraged to make.

    Contact: Vera Hassner Sharav
    212-595-8974
    veracare@ahrp. org

  • Mike H

    Passionless drone,

    Thank you for correcting my error. Perhaps I should have used the exact phrase that was used in the Canadian report – it looked at “non-thimerosal exposed” rather than “non-vaccinated”. The study was compared the rates of autism between when vaccines in Canada cointained thimerosol vs after thimerosol usage was entirely discontnued in Canada. An interesting finding was that the prevalence of autism was 30% higher in the non-thimerosal population than in the thimerosal expsed poulation. This lead to the coclusion that thimerosal exposure was not related to the increasing tren in the prevalence of autism. The MMR portion of the study compared MMR vaccination rates to the rate of increase in autism. It found that while the rate off MMR vaccination decreased, the rate of autism continued to increase. Again this indicates that MMR is not realted to autism.

    The Japanese study I cited looked at MMR only. Yes, the subjects did still recive other vaccines, and probably had the three separate vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella (a preferred staregy recommended by many anti-MMR people, and one for which I have no objection).

    I apologize if I misstated anything. However, as you said, there were plenty of vaccines in these studies, and still no correlation to autism.

  • Chuck

    Mike,

    As I do not know the year that Canada removed Thimerosal, did they hold the diagnosis criteria constant pre and post removal? Did they use pre and post DSM-IV or did pre and post DSM-III? The next logical question is that since the rates of DSM-IV have existed for 13 years and “better understanding” and “better awareness” are now well ingrained, what is causing the current increase?

  • Mike H

    Chcuk,

    Thimerosal was removed from Canada in 1996. I am not able to comment on the use of DSM-III or DSM – IV.

    Givent he fact that “higher functioning” forms of autism wre not characterized and diagnosed until the mid – late 90′s (Aspergers was not recognized until 1994 and diagnostic criteria not established until a few years later), I do believe that better ubderstanding and better diagnostics do play a significant role in the increase.

  • Chuck

    If the pre-Thimerosal population was diagnosed with DSM-III criteria and the post-Thimerosal population was diagnosed with DSM-IV criteria, that would invalidate the results of the study and it’s determination on causation or lack of causation.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Thanks to Cliff for writing about himself and his past experiences here—-I am wondering what others might say if they wrote about specific experiences in their own history and lives, in addition to mention of research and scientific studies. Diagnosis at 3 years old is not unusual—-

  • Mike H

    Regarding the Merck youtube video and Oral Polio Vaccine,

    It is well established that HIV did in fact evolve from the Simian Immunodeficiency virus, HIV. Exactly how it happened and was transmitted to the human population is not known. The Polio Vaccine theory is one of many.

    To learn more, check out this link to the website of AVERT. http://www.avert.org/origins.htm

    AVERT is an international AIDS charity and presents the history of HIV/AIDS and these origin theories in an unbiased manner.

  • Erwin Alber

    Whether mercury causes autism or not, surely injecing a highly neurotoxic mercury compound into babies and children is rampant insanity!

    In my opinion, autism is the result of a genetic predisposition being triggered by the mercury, the aluminum and foreign protein in vaccines.

    The biggest ever “urban myth” is that “vaccines prevent diseases”! Vaccines have not protected a single person from disease – EVER! – let alone saved anyone’s life.

    The truth is that since Jenner’s invention of his smallpox vaccine at the end of the 18th century,
    vaccines have maimed and killed countless children all over the world. It is an ugly and brutal racket like no other.

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  • Suzanne Dado

    Where are the numbers of children who’ve not had vaccines but have autism? I know the numbers must be out there, there are women with children on this board who have these children. Why doesn’t the CDC or APA just put these numbers out there? As someone who is researching vaccines and autism, it seems like a reasonable question. The answer would definitely inform my decision to vaccinate or not.

  • Erwin Alber

    In 1977, 10 babies died in a Toronto hospital when mercury-containing Thiomersal (or Thimerosal) was dabbed on their umbilical cords as a disinfectant. Its topical use and injection into animals was banned after that, but NOT its injection into babies!

    It would be a fairly logical conclusion that this mercury-containing compound which kills babies if applied on the OUTSIDE is likely to be harmful to babies immature brains when INJECTED, and that the people in charge of public health must be profit-driven psychopaths and mad scientists.

    In his article “The Vaccine Cover-Up” (on Dr Mercola MD’s website) US neurosurgeon of 26 years Dr Russell Blaylock MD says:

    “The mercury and aluminum used in vaccines are significant neurotoxins which play a major role in all neurodegenerative disorders. It is also important to rememeber that both these metals accumulate in the brain and spinal cord. This makes them much more dangerous than more rapidly excreted toxins. This may also explain the ten-fold increase in Alzheimer’s disease in those who receiving the flu vaccine five years in a row.

    Our society is littered with millions of children who have been harmed in one degree or other by vaccinations. In addition, let us not forget the millions of parents who had to watch helplessly as their children have been destroyed by devastating vaccination programmes.”

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  • vintagechic

    I didn’t even finish this article. Because, so much of the information in it just doesn’t fly. If you’ve really researched vaccines, you know that they include not only thimersol, but aluminum and formaldyhydes as well. In amounts not suitable for adults. Let alone infants.
    There are storage units of vaccines, years old, still being sold with the previous amounts of mercury in them. As well as the fact that they still create the vaccines using the same methods. Then, they’ve said to have “chelated out the mercury.” Which, removes possibly a stunning 50%. So, for whatever stock you place in that removal method…I don’t.
    Vaccines are given to infants before they are thoroughly tested. And any smart mother would question this more than once. Rather, or not the pharmacuetical studies have shown a “connection.” And you’d certainly read all sides of the studies as well. Realizing that often studies are done to prove the point of whomever the study was done by.
    Researching the history of the vaccine manufacturers is worth some effort. One example; the polio vaccine was sold for years being made from wild monkeys, that had the CMV virus. Because, it was cheaper than growing clean monkeys in custody.
    Many mother’s already have a toxic body burden of heavy metals including those in the silver/mercury fillings inside their mouths. Mercury in the mother is shown to gather around the ambilical cord. Children with a genetic, pre-disposition for disorders in the mitochondria will develop autism from their vaccines. So, until you know if this is your child. The choice is up to you. But, I wouldn’t take the chance, if it meant losing my child’s functioning life to a disability.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    So, vintagechic, tell me (*I* already know the answer, I’m asking if *YOU* do): Where does mtDNA come from?

    I was about to ask you about specific base translocations, and realized that it was probably a waste of typing based on your comment, so let’s start with Where Does mtDNA Come From?

  • Mary

    What does it matter where mtDNA came from if the ingredients are killing babies?

    Search “Primate shows signs of autism with same vaccine schedule as children”

    Search “Hannah Poling”

    Vaccines are literally the biggest and worst marketing scam to have ever hit humankind, from the 1800s and on. Money and greed govern their use the world over and nothing else.

  • Erwin Alber

    Although vaccines may not cause true autism, they are the most probable cause behind the huge increase in neurological disorders including develomental regression, with symtoms similar to autism.

    It is however not only the mercury which is neurotoxic, but also the aluminium (or aluminum in the US) and the foreign protein in vaccines.

    In developed countries, vaccinations are a far greater health hazard than the diseases they supposedly protect against.

    I consider parents who get their children vaccinated grossly misinformed. They don’t seem to realise that vaccinations area an elaborate hoax. I fully support Mary’s comment about vaccinations she made on May 26th.

    In “The toxic vaccine cover-up” on Dr Mercola’s website Dr R Blaylock MD quotes a study according to which people who have the flu shot five years in a row have a ten-fold increased risk of getting Alzheimers later in life. I’ll take my chances with the flu any day.

    In 1977, Thiomersal (or Thimerosal) killed 10 babies in a Toronto hospital when it was dabbed on their umbilical cords as a disinfectant. This mercury-containing compound was banned for topical use and injection into animals after that, but continued to be injected, via vaccination, into babies, children and adults!

    One can only conclude that the people behind government-funded and supported vaccination programmes are psychopathic maniacs. Who else would tell people that injecting mercury, aluminium, formaldehyde, MSG, and tiny bits of monkey kidneys, chicken embryos and cells derived from an aborted human foetus into babies is good for their health?

    As Adam Weishaupt said: “Oh foolish man! What can’t you be made to believe?”

    Vaccinations are as unnecessary, idiotic and barabaric as the genital mutilation carried out in some African countries. We think that the people who do this are ignorant savages, but are we any better?

  • Erwin Alber

    Although vaccines may not cause true autism, they are the most probable cause behind the huge increase in neurological disorders including develomental regression, with symtoms which sometimes resemble autism.

    It is not only the mercury which is neurotoxic, but also the aluminium (or aluminum in the US) and the foreign protein in vaccines.

    In developed countries, vaccinations are a far greater health hazard than the diseases they supposedly protect against.

    I consider parents who get their children vaccinated grossly misinformed. They don’t seem to realise that vaccinations area an elaborate hoax. I fully support Mary’s comment about vaccinations on May 26th.

    In “The toxic vaccine cover-up” on Dr Mercola’s website, Dr R Blaylock MD quotes a study according to which people who have the flu shot five years in a row have a ten-fold increased risk of getting Alzheimers later in life. I’ll take my chances with the flu any day.

    In 1977, Thiomersal (or Thimerosal) killed 10 babies in a Toronto hospital when it was dabbed on their umbilical cords as a disinfectant. This mercury-containing compound was banned for topical use and injection into animals after that, but continued to be injected, via vaccination, into babies, children and adults!

    One can only conclude that the people behind government-funded/supported vaccination programmes are psychopathic maniacs. Who else would tell people that injecting mercury, aluminium, formaldehyde, MSG, and tiny bits of monkey kidneys, chicken embryos and cells derived from an aborted human foetus into babies is good for their health?

    Vaccinations are as unnecessary and barbaric as the female genital mutilations carried out in some African countries. We think that the people who do this are ignorant savages, but are we any better? I don’t think so.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    On Hannah Poling, much commentary here.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Is FGM going to become the new Godwin? The 2 aren’t even comparable. THere is NO benifit from FGM. People DIED without vaccines. People are getting sick again from diseases that haven’t been seen for generations from the unwarranted vaccine hysteria again.

    And apparently no one knows where mtDNA comes from. Tip: YOUR MOM.

  • Mary

    Kassiane,

    People are dying WITH vaccines, and more than ever they are being maimed WITH vaccines, so what have we gained?

    Vaccines have killed and maimed more than have ever been affected by disease. Also, 750,000 people die A YEAR from medicines, interactions, misdiagnosis, hospital foul-ups, improper doses, etc., that’s more than any diease.

    If they can kill 750K a year with just plain poor medical care, what makes you think that vaccines are the Holy Grail?

    “People are getting sick from diseases that haven’t been seen in generations” —- really? What would that be?

    Measles?

    Measles NEVER left us. In fact, it can be contended that measle “epidemics” are actually started from the sloughing off of recently vaccinated people and would actually disappear without the vaccine.

    And to you mtDNA: I never said I didn’t know where it comes from, I said basically “so what”?

    Are you saying that damage from vaccines and chemicals is trumped by mtDNA? What are you saying? Spit it out and quit playing word games.

  • HCN

    Mary said “People are dying WITH vaccines, and more than ever they are being maimed WITH vaccines, so what have we gained?”

    That is pretty inflammatory statement. Can you back it up with some real evidence? Like if the MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps or rubella you would have some documentation for it… could you please share? Also, be advised that that documentation has to come from a reliable source, preferably indexed at http://www.pubmed.gov.

  • Mary

    HCN, are you truly saying you don’t know that people can die from a vaccine? That it is listed on the warnings portion of each and every vaccine insert put out by the vaccine makers?

    Are you saying you have NEVER just cruised through VAERS or read about death and injury from vaccines?

    I have plenty of proof, from Europe, to New Zealand, to Africa to the good old USA — SIDs being just one example.

    Why don’t you show me conculsive proof that measles is still killing people – actual deaths from healthy individuals who have NEVER been vaccinated and have NO underlying conditions – after all, those are the only people they use in their vaccine “studies” so it stands to reason those should be the only measles deaths I would consider valid.

    The HPV vaccine alone has been credited with more than a dozen deaths in the USA alone. Do some homework, I certainly don’t have the time to do it for you.

  • Mary

    While you are researching look at the history of cancer – then combine that with the history of pesticide use and vaccinations on humans. While you are at that, google court settlement and vaccine injury.

    A woman in Idaho had a baby die of SIDS directly after the babies vaccination, however, the SIDS they classified it as had frothy blood crusted in the corners of his mouth and nose — how on earth do they get SIDS from crusty blood?

    Proof in other countries has been shown that a large portion of shaken baby syndrome is nothing more than inflamed brain matter from vaccines.

    Again, you’ll have to look farther than the standard news sources whose very paychecks depend on you believing in them!

  • HCN

    Mary said “HCN, are you truly saying you don’t know that people can die from a vaccine? That it is listed on the warnings portion of each and every vaccine insert put out by the vaccine makers?”

    Actually, no.

    You made a claim that implied that the vaccines were more dangerous than the diseases. Claiming some large number die each year from the vaccines (when the number can actually be counted on one hand).

    You made the claim, you need to back it up.

    Like this statement: “Proof in other countries has been shown that a large portion of shaken baby syndrome is nothing more than inflamed brain matter from vaccines.”

    Evidence? Documentation? Something other than an unsupported anecdote or you stating that it happened?

    Because this line has been used to say that Japan stopped SIDS by delaying the pertussis vaccine until children were two years old. Instead SIDS continued, but the vaccine could not be blaimed, and deaths from pertussis went up:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889991?

  • HCN

    Mary said “Measles NEVER left us. In fact, it can be contended that measle “epidemics” are actually started from the sloughing off of recently vaccinated people and would actually disappear without the vaccine.”

    Evidence? Documentation? Something that can be verified, like from http://www.pubmed.gov where I got the link in the message that needs moderation.

  • HCN

    Just to put in one comment that won’t be moderated:

    Mary, why should we believe you?

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Mary has no proof.

    Seems they never do. *le sigh*

  • Mary

    On one hand?

    There are a DOZEN deaths attributed to the HPV vaccine alone on VAERS (you do know what that is correct?) – cruise through it yourself. There are more than 1,500 reactions to go with just that vaccine.

    Do a search on an Idaho mother, her child died and she was awarded money from the compensation program while another mother was awarded 43 million for a vaccine turning her child into a parapalygic (sp).

    I have TWO children who were injured from vaccines and no it wasn’t autism and that puts two of your fingers up right there.

    Do you really and honestly think I’m going to sit here to prove to YOU what I already know? No, I’m not. The proof is out there. IN fact, there is more proof out there in my favor than yours.

    Prove Herd Immunity
    Prove Safety – something that was done by an independent researcher, not the vaccine company
    Prove that the continual damage to our kids is NOT from vaccines – austism, ADHD, ADD, diabetes, asthma, and the big one, arthritis?

    There are two kinds of measles, the wild kind and the kind from a vaccine. There is a test that a child can take to determine which is which, but you never hear about that on the news now do you? (read: Just a little prick by Hillary Butler)

    The SV40 simian virus which has been found in a majority of cancers in humans was cultured and left in our polio vaccine for YEARS and YEARS. (read: The Virus and the Vaccine)

    Have you ever even read a manufacturers insert? You really should, you would see whose foot is in whose mouth!

    Do your own homework, I’ve done mine.

  • Mary

    Kassiane,

    I have my two children for proof. I have my husband for proof. I have my mother for proof. All vaccine injured, mother is dead, oldest daughter was almost dead, middle daughter has lifelong arthritis due to VACCINES.

    That’s MY proof. I suppose someone like you would CONTINUE to vaccinate, but I’ve learned so much in the last eight years that dealing with people like you is just a part of it.

    Husband has documented hearing loss directly from Hep B vaccine and there are SO many more cases, SO many more.

    You show me proof that vaccines are 100% safe. And it should be indexed at “not going to happen.com” since there is no such study. ALso, proof herd immunity — again in 8 years of research I have yet to find a conclusive study that proves any part of the herd immunity THEORY.

    And what happened to your mtDNA argument? Not strong enough to continue with it?

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    These are important stories to note. But the scientific evidence continues to not point to a connection between vaccines as the cause of autism.

  • Mary

    should be “prove” herd immunity……….

  • Mary

    Scientific evidence is created by men and women with something to lose. Scientific evidence is malleable, fallible and prone to error. Have you ever read “Discarded Science” – have you ever read “Corrupted Science?”

    Have you ever wondered why aluminum, formaldyhyde (sp), mercury, sqaulene and other chemicals are cause for hazardous waste teams, but are A-okay to be shot into us via needles, straight past every biological defense we have an into our bloodstream?

    You would rather put your trust in men and women who WORK FOR THE vaccine makers and write studies than the parents themselves?

    What about the primate that shows signs of autism with the same vaccine schedule as a child? Not good enough for you I suppose?

    I thank God each and every day that I allow myself to trust my own mother’s instinct and don’t go off of some ego driven, school taught scientific method that they can’t replicate twice.

    Have you been through the damage on VAERS? Have you been through the damage being harvested in other countries? Have you read The Virus and the Vaccine?

    Incredible that science, life, health, it all changes throughout society, but for one reason or another VACCINES are the one constant that science chooses to believe in…………….

  • Mary

    BTW, “important stories to note”

    It’s that very condescension that makes me sick.

    It’s also the very ego driven type of thinking that stops us from really changing the health of our children and ourselves.

  • vintagechic

    For more info and links on Mitochondrial damage and autism
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/

    Wow! Vaccine comments seem to open a pandoras box of extreme emotions on either side. I think that once you know that your loved one was injured by vaccination, it changes everything. You take two steps back and stop believing the “pseudo” research oriented selling campaigns of the large pharmacies, and get down to reality. This is about a billion dollar industry. This is big business. And big business doesn’t care what’s happening down stream! Big business cares about money. I would much sooner believe research done by scientists and researchers whose own lives have been affected when their children developed a disability. And the pleas of parents.

    I’d follow their lead long before I’d listen to “Big Business.” Or, the pharmacy reports stating that “There is no correlation between autism and vaccines…” Blah, blah, blah.

    It’s not that any of us want to start an epidemic. Though, disease epidemics come and go on there own without vaccines anyway.

    But, there are happier, healthier ways to “vaccinate” a child such as natural-oral vaccines. Which, should have long made shots obsolete. Or, if you must vaccinate. Atleast, ensure that you have a doctor who will order vaccines that don’t contain any harmful toxins, or preservatives. It’s possible. They don’t like to do it. Because, the vaccine has to be used within two weeks and isn’t suitable for long term storage.

    For the girl who got trapped in the mt DNA discussion- Here’s an introductory link to what is happening in this arena.
    I enjoy this author, David Kirby, who is currently following the debate on mitochondrial damage and vaccines, and the autism lawsuits facing the government. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/government-concedes-vacci_b_88323.html

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Here’s an earlier post that about David Kirby on mitochondrial disorders; he’s again “rebranding” autism as something else.

    http://www.autismvox.com/too-many-questions/

  • vintagechic

    Laura, I’m sorry. But, only 3 children of the millions in your state died of the flu. While, not vaccinated. This means nothing to me. Considering that the flu vaccine rarely, if ever, treats for the correct flu strain that’s going through the state. It’s a guess that is made the year before. Has never, since I can remember, been the correct choice of flu strain. It’s like saying “Well, I gave my child the chicken pox vaccine. Because, I don’t want him to get measles.” It doesn’t work. Meanwhile, your allowing the “scare” that the industry puts out every year to get you into buy the vaccine, to manipulate you. “Oh, hurry. Before, they run out! Hurry, get your infant immunized.” Whenever I hear the local add that sais, “Vaccinate by two it’s up to you.” I hear, “Disable by two, it’s up to you.” The flu vaccine has the highest known amount of Mercury of any vaccine made. And there have been no attempts made to correct this in the flu vaccine. So, I think that because of your fears, you are giving your child a big dose of stupidity. And if not autism, you are pre-disposing an already autistic child to developing MS, Parkinsons, or Alzhiemers later in life. Don’t fall for the scare tactics. Pharmacueticals pay the local networks to run “NEWS” stories that advertise for prescription drugs, vaccines and other treatments. Protect your children. NO ONE ELSE IS GOING TO DO IT!

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Paranoia. Is there a vaccine?

  • vintagechic

    Kristina, I realize that you have a bone to pick. Isn’t it you who said several of your family has autism and you aspbergers. From what I understand, you’re tired of being treated like there is something wrong with people who have autism spectrum disorders. It’s just a different type of person. Not a lesser person. You know what? You are right! I feel for you. I understand that you don’t want to believe that any mitochondrial or any other damage was done to your family. But, honey. I’m not trying to say, “Your less of a person. Because, you have aspbergers.” It’s not that we’re trying to say “Do away with these people who have this disorder by correcting the problem.”

    The sad truth of living in this world is that no matter who you are, you probably have some disorder of the millions of disorders possible. You may not even be aware of it. It may not be immediately noticable. It’s strewn among your talents and the things that are difficult for you to achieve. Yet, you’re functional. And the other sad thing is that no matter who you are, someone is judging you, as being less of a human being. Some people are rude, ignorant and judgemental. I’ve been made to feel less of a person my entire life. Because, I was raised in a poor family with poor ways. I went to a wealthy school and was constantly picked on for being “less” of a person. No matter who you are, there is a reason, that some ill informed people, ill mannered people will find to think less of you. That’s life.

    And that is why, as a mother of a child who is severely autistic, who I love and adore, I hurt. He has just one more reason to be picked on, to not be seen as the beautiful person that I know him to be. He is so smart. He is handsome. He is genuine. He has a great sense of humor and wonderful personality. And I know this. But, many people will never look beyond his autism to get to know him, or see who is inside. And I am fighting to stop the increase in autism. Because, parents have dreams for their children. After, I had Cameron I realized that my dreams for him would have to change to suit his life. But, still I worry that he will never be able to have the independence that he wants…and he already at six years old…is very frustrated by this. He hurts and becomes aggressive when he can’t play out on his own as other children do. And when I am gone, who will take care of him? Will they be kind? Will they be abusive? You are lucky. You are a say in your life, you are functional and intelligent, and able to write on this forum, and probably able to succeed at the things you’d like to try in life. Many autistic children don’t have a chance to do that. They are not at that high level of functioning. How is that fair to them?

    And their own personal dreams will be hidden in their hearts forever. Can’t you see that we would want our child just as the person that they are …only able to function in more areas? It’s not that hard to wrap your mind around this concept. We want to protect our children, our grandchildren, and our loved one’s from something that is making life harder on them. We, who are willing to fight the battle today, to find the truth at the end, even if that truth was not as we believed it to be, are the hope of this world.

    In Britain now, autism is ranked at 1 in 50 children. Who is going to take care of everyone when everyone is autistic? I’m completely overwhelmed by the thought of that. And who is going to pay the bill? Is it the government? No, it’s each of us individually.

    And really we are not just talking about autism here. We are talking about many disabilities that maybe didn’t need to be triggered- such as MS, Parkinsons, and etc.

  • vintagechic

    Kev,

    The problem with accepting your “research” blindly as you apparently do. Is that you are not honouring that there is such “research” done on both sides, of equal efficacy.

    And that your “studies” are most promoted in favor of only the one side of the argument, that which is in agreement with the current medical association stand on the subject. And you are also talking about the same medical data that used to recommend “bleeding people” to get rid of the germs. The medical association changes their stance at the drop of a hat/study. These are the people who said “always belly sleep your baby” Then, it became “only sleep your baby on their backs” as a SIDS fear. Now there’s all these babies with “flat head” Gee, whose great idea was that? You sound like one of those doctors who never listens to the parents. Because, you know it all. Well, sorry buddy. We aren’t quoting research, not because we haven’t read it. I read “it” everyday looking for answers to the many problems I’m faced with in raising my child. You are just side stepping the issue by saying, “prove it” every minute. You go prove it to yourself! You feel free to list all the research in the world. But, do it nicely. And then, if we are interested, we’ll read it!

  • vintagechic

    I believe I was mistaken in one of my posts. It was Kassiana that I meant to address and not Kristina. And so I apologize. Though, I disagree with much of what Kristina sais. As I find it condescending to say that parents are so busy fighting vaccinations that they aren’t teaching their children how to live good lives. That is beyond ridiculous to think that such devoted parents would just disregard teaching their children.

    We all have the same goal in mind…finding what is best for our children. And in so many posts where people are crying out for research and proof, they aren’t posting anything of proof themselves. They are just flameing others. I am rather getting tired of it and so I may just leave this board. And move on to something more productive. Though, you have all given me things to think about. Sadly, in rather a negative way.

    Oh, and in response to David Kirby and the Mitochondria articles. You weren’t paying attention. It was not he who was trying to re-name autism as something else…it said In this case, as Kirby writes, “US Assistant Attorney General Peter Keisler and other Justice Department officials conceded on November 9 that a child “had a pre-existing mitochondrial disorder that was ‘aggravated’ by her shots, and which ultimately resulted in an ASD diagnosis” or, more specifically, in a diagnosis of “regressive encephalopathy (brain disease) ”

    It was the attorney general.

    EDUCATE BEFORE YOU VACCINATE!!!!

  • Mary

    Emily – is there a vaccine for greed? Because that’s all vaccines are now, money making opportunities for pharma companies.

    VintageChic – we’re pssing in the wind here and getting soaked. Some people have to literally cull their own children from society before they see (if they ever do) the damage done……….

    Preach on though, we may yet reach one or two with open minds and hurting hearts.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @vintage chic,
    I should also note that my son is very healthy. Many of the causes of autism are genetic, so no surprise that many of us have relatives on the spectrum. Hope Cameron is getting the education most suited to him; this is what has most helped y son, now 11.

    Kirby has a history of renaming autism as “something else.” Last year it was “END” and we can only await the next metamorphosis. very best–

  • Mary

    Kristina, there is no such thing as a genetic epidemic. They want you to believe that your genetics are flawed, when the truth is that your child is overloaded with toxins and or didn’t get what he needed from your womb because you are likely overloaded with toxins.

    As well, any mother than got the Rhogam shot during birth got a big old helping of mercury via the shot.
    ##
    MMR/autism story in UK journal:
    http://www.telegrap h.co.uk/health/ main.jhtml? xml=/health/ 2008/05/26/ hautism126. xml

    “The vaccine hypothesis was bolstered recently by a five-year study in monkeys who were given the same vaccinations that American children are routinely given. Last week, Dr Laura Hewitson, a specialist in obstetrics, gynaecology and reproductive sciences at the University of Pittsburgh, told the International Meeting for Autism Research in London that in the double-blind placebo-controlled study, 13 vaccinated animals showed increased aggression, impaired cognitive skills and developmental delay. The three unvaccinated animals in the study developed normally.”

    Here is your double-blind placebo study above – that’s just ONE.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    On Dr. Hewitson’s questionable science, here is one analysis.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/05/some_monkey_business_in_autism_research.php

    Thanks to a better understanding of autism—-enabling us to have this exchange!—-there are more autism diagnoses and fewer diagnoses in other categories such as mental retardation. I expect you will tell me I’m very wrong; I thank you in advance. And thanks for your perseverance in commenting here.

  • Mary

    That link goes to a blog (uh, not very pubmed in my book) that gives an opinion, again, about why all the anti-vaxxer’s are wrong and all the highly educated, psuedoGods are right.

    Says nothing that the author of the monkey research could not defend themselves against given the same amount of space and hot air.

    What will it take to show the damage that children are rec’ing at the end of a needle?

    Rampant infertility? Alreay here.
    Rampant learning disabilities? Already here.
    Rampant medical conditions? Already here.
    Rampant violence? Already here.
    Rampant dumbing down of Americans? Already here.
    Rampant food allergies and lifelong conditions that change one’s life? Already here.

    What is it that you all are waiting for? Complete annihilation of our species – and then there will still be that one naysayer who tells us that “it wasn’t the chemicals or the vaccines – it was just time for the earth to renew with a bunch more dumb homo sapiens.”

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Orac is a research scientist and a respected blogger in the science community; hope you will read the article and consider his careful analysis of the problems in Dr. Hewitson’s poster presentation (it is not a published study and hence there would not be a pubmed type article refuting it).

    Very glad to be in conversation with you, omnes homines sapientes.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    I’m sure that’s what Edward Jenner and Jonas Salk had in mind. Oh, that we could have stopped them while there was still time.

  • Mary

    Emily,

    I sincerely despise trying to hold conversations with people who refuse to just say what they mean. What on earth does Salk and Jenner have to do with what we are talking about?

    And are you aware that both of their vaccines were severly flawed and caused more cases of polio that maimed and killed thousands? Are you aware that the polio vaccine, cultured in monkey kidneys brought us SV40 a virus that is found in a large, large number of cancers afflicting us today? Or that the SV40 cannot be stopped because it is passed from mother to child and passed along in sperm.

    Emily, I think that if you have something to say you should just come out and say it because your riddles aren’t coming through quite as you might hope.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Gee, Mary. Please edumacate me more. I haven’t learned enough about science.

    It’s fine with me if my “riddles” don’t come through. I’m doing my best to assuage frustration with them, nothing more than that. Using any kind of sincerity in these discussions is completely worthless, and it would be an utter waste of time to tediously address each fallacy and false premise. Thankfully, this has been done by others far more patient than I (or with more time), and information is available for those who seek it with a discerning mind. I’m misbehaving even posting on these damned vaccine threads, something I try not to do, and I should stop now. My apologies for being flip. BS has that effect on me.

  • Mary

    And yet again you failed to even somewhat answer any of my questions. You refuse to post any sources of your own, or your education level or whether or not you’ve read any books either for or against vaccines.

    Let’s just say the BS feeling is mutual and move on shall we?

    And, I can only hope that when your child becomes or worsens from the continual onslaught of chemicals via pollution, food or vaccines, you will finally wake up and smell the greed and idiocy for what it is.

  • Mary

    And that should be “becomes injured or worsens. . . “

  • Mary

    BTW, I wish we could have stopped Jenner and Salk from their idiocy. You see polio was declining on its own years (that’s as in many 365 days per year) before they introduced their death vaccine.

    Their vacccine had NOTHING to do with the down spiral of polio and actually created polio and death and introduced cancer via SV40 into our lives.

    What part of that are you not understanding?

    Source: The Virus and the Vaccine written by two very well known and well respected journalists who expose the polio vaccine for what it really was and is. A joke.

  • Mary

    and again, that should be “on its own FOR years”

    Very tired.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Me, too, Mary. Me, too. I hope that someday, I wake up and learn all about the environmental toxins that are flooding our bodies and causing congenital defects, et al. For all three of my children, pitiful little creatures that they are to be saddled with such a mother. Amen.

  • Mary

    Well Emily, it’s never too late to wake up and find out just what those toxins are. I realize you are being nothing short of a smart ass, but frankly, my dear, you’re much closer to the truth than YOU would like to admit.

    I have taken the time to find out what those chemicals are in my child’s life and to the extent that I am able I have removed those toxins and will continue to do so as long as they live in my house. You can continue to waste time on here trying to belittle me all you want, but I’m on the right track and there is nothing quite as comforting as knowing that.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    So.

    You still didn’t tell me where mtDNA comes from. I already know. I know more about mitochondrial disorders than I care to, and did BEFORE the Poling case. I’m 2 years ahead of y’all on this one. And a reputable geneticist I spoke to (mine) said that refusing to vax a kid because of a mito disorder is medical neglect, unless there are allergies.

    I stand by my statement that people who refuse to vaccinate their kids and send diseases into the world should pay for the damage. And FFS, I am not aspie, not like the lines matter. Why do curebies always try to dismiss autistic advocates as “JUST aspie” whenever we disagree?

    (before anyone gets pissy with me about that, note that I’m echoing their tone, I feel autism is autism is autism. Im annoyed about people using words that don’t mean what they think they mean, walls o’text of the same, and assumptions being made about me, et cetera)

  • Mary

    Kassiane,

    I’m not autistic, nor do I have an autistic child. I argue the safety and need of vaccines based on the deaths associated with vaccines, the injuries associated with vaccines and the fact that we do not need 48 vaccines before our sixth year of life. It is nothing more than greed and fear mongering.

    And frankly, I could care less what you think about my unvaccinated child. My first two children were injured, I’d have to be a complete moron to continue to vaccinate my third child based on this knowledge. I get it that YOU would probably keep vaccinating, even though the inserts on vaccines clearly state that their effectiveness is never 100% and even though death and a whole litany of other “reactions” are listed and even though you have a previous child that was injured. I get it that YOU would probably still vaccinate, which is why people like you will soon be gone. You will have vaccinated your line of breeding totally out of existence, and perhaps that’s the real plan of the universe. Get rid of the sheeple and move on with those that do not (or no longer, since I too was once a sheeple) blindly follow others over the cliff.

    I dont’ care what bell curve you were ahead of or where mtDNA comes from. Vaccines are harmful cocktails of chemicals, aborted fetuses, animal DNA, and more and I will never and I do mean never agree or be bullied into vaccinating myself or my children again.

    Before you get pissy – keep in mind – you are making ass-umptions just the same as everyone else on here.

  • a long-time poster

    Who’s the real fear-monger here?

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Mary,
    The theories about vaccines as a cause of autism have become deeply rooted in the cultural mindset. I understand why people need an explanation for “what happened” to a child. There are numerous reports, as you note, in the media about a link between vaccines and autism but the science does not bear this out—which is not to say that discussion about this issue will continue.

    Very best to your family.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Mary, you are making your kid a murderer, and you are a liar.

    Great job.

    *slow sarcastic clap*

  • Mary

    And you Kassiane must be very young, or very stupid.

  • HCN

    Mary said “You show me proof that vaccines are 100% safe.”

    Who ever said that vaccines, or anything else are 100% safe?

    Still, tell me, why should we believe you?

  • Mary

    HCN, I really dont’ care whether you believe me or not. I know that vaccines are a menace to our bodies. I know that vaccines can and do cause cancer. I know that vaccines can and do trigger our bodies to attack themselves through autoimmunity conditions. I know that vaccines can and do cause blindness, death and hearing loss.

    I know that RA is rampant due to vaccines. I know that ADD and ADHD is rampant due to vaccine overload.

    I know all this and more. If you choose not to believe it, so be it.

  • HCN

    So, Mary, you just argue by blatant assertion. No need for documentation or proof for you!

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Gosh, Mary, you make youth sound like a bad thing. I am science literate, which frankly is something you cannot say.

    Did you leave your critical thinking skills in your other shoes?

  • Mary

    K – how would you know how literate I am or am not? Or what courses I may have taken at the graduate level or not?

    You know nothing about me other than ass-umptions you are making because I do not agree with your propoganda. It’s that simple.

    And since age is not a bad thing in your book, it must be the stupidity that you posses to call my child a murderer and me a liar.

  • Mary

    Well, I’ve tried to post a very long and detailed post with sources and websites three times now and it’s not showing, since I”m arguing with fence posts anyway, I guess I’ll give up……….me being so scientifically stunted and all.

  • Mary

    Another thing K – my critical thinking skills are far superior to anyone who would vaccinate their child, watch their child regress, or be in pain, and then DO IT AGAIN!

  • Mary

    “In December, Merck recalled 1.2 million doses of one of their flu vaccines made by the same plant because of sterility problems found in October. And in another case they even quarantined an entire year’s worth of suspected doses.

    Naturally, Merck’s PR machine is working overtime to fend off, deflect, and reassure. The company maintains that no contamination was found in finished vaccines (I don’t buy it), and that the problems are being addressed. ”
    WC Doulas article on vaccine contamination

    MMR/autism story in UK journal:
    http://www.telegrap h.co.uk/health/ main.jhtml? xml=/health/ 2008/05/26/ hautism126. xml

    “The vaccine hypothesis was bolstered recently by a five-year study in monkeys who were given the same vaccinations that American children are routinely given. Last week, Dr Laura Hewitson, a specialist in obstetrics, gynaecology and reproductive sciences at the University of Pittsburgh, told the International Meeting for Autism Research in London that in the double-blind placebo-controlled study, 13 vaccinated animals showed increased aggression, impaired cognitive skills and developmental delay. The three unvaccinated animals in the study developed normally.”

  • Mary

    FDA documents reveal HPV ‘not
    associated with cervical cancer’:
    NewsTarget.com
    Tucson 12/19/2007 06:12 PM GMT (FINDITT)

    A NewsTarget investigation has revealed that the FDA knew as early as 2003 that Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) was not linked to cervical cancer. Despite this knowledge, the FDA, along with key pharmaceutical companies, has continued to push for the use of HPV vaccinations as a defense against cervical cancer, even when its own research showed no link exists.

    This week NewsTarget publishes “The Great HPV Vaccine Hoax Exposed,” a special report that cites numerous FDA documents and clinical studies indicating that HPV vaccines are not only ineffective but possibly dangerous. According to the report, the Gardasil vaccine has been linked to a 44.6% increase in precancerous lesions in some women, raising serious doubts over the sensibility of mandatory vaccination policies.

    The special report is available now at http://www.newstarg et.com/Report_ HPV_Vaccine_ 0.html The conclusion of this article appears on NewsTarget.com, the independent natural health news source for consumers. This article, along with other related articles and uncensored news on important consumer health topics, can be found at:

    HPV Vaccine Hoax Exposed: FDA Documents Reveal HPV “Not Associated with Cervical Cancer” http://www.newstarg et.com/022404. html
    About NewsTarget

    Read by over 500,000 unique readers monthly, NewsTarget is a progressive, independent natural health news site that teaches consumers how to improve their health through foods, herbs, exercise and natural therapies. The site also warns consumers about the dangers of processed foods, pharmaceuticals, chemotherapy, environmental toxins and the failure of government regulators like the FDA.

    http://www.newstarget. com

    The #1 cause of death and injury in America is medical errors…784,000 people die from medical mistakes. Over 2.2 million people are injured every year by prescription drugs alone and over 20 million unnecessary prescriptions are prescribed of antibiotics annually for viral infections. (A 7 Year study Nutritional Institute of America- October 24, 2003 Deadly Medical Mistakes Exposed, Gary Null (646)505-4660 x 155)
    • 7.5 million Unnecessary medical and surgical procedures are performed every year and 8.9 million people are needlessly hospitalized annually. Consider this quote; “I was completely shocked, amazed and dismayed when I first added up all the statistics on medical death and saw how much allopathic medicine has betrayed us.” Carolyn Dean, MD, a physician and author who helped uncover findings for this study.
    • “It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States. (783,936 costing 282 billion).” NIA October 24, 2003
    ____ Mary Toco

    ** Small sampling of the huge, huge amount of real news out there on the ineffectiveness and dangers of vaccines.

    Every day, literally everyday, something new comes out about the dangers of vaccines. THe dangers of overvaccinating our children, the dangers of “modern” medicine and more. Read more than this blog and you’ll probably see what I mean as well!

  • HCN

    Mary is obviously smarter than Roald Dahl!

    http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=715

  • Mary

    http://www.novaccine.com/reactions-conditions/

    http://www.novaccine.com/vaccine-ineffectiveness/index.asp?p=1&s=2&sv_id=&scientific=-

    1. Watch Live Video of Vaccine Developer discussing how vaccines contained AIDS and Cancer viruses. Go to this link and put “Merk Drug Company” in the search and the video will come up with Dr. Maurice Hilleman
    This video was just recently released and proves that vaccines are contaminated with cancer causing and AIDS causing viruses. They discovered this in the 1950′s and kept it from the public.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?327_1195303011

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Discussion of that article in the Telegraph is here, along with links to the limitations of Dr. Hewitson’s poster presentation at IMFAR on the monkeys.

  • Mary

    That’s insane Kristina. Someone finally does a study and it’s ripped apart by people who are NOT doing studies because they don’t want to see the relevance.

    And the writer even makes an assertion that it was cruel to the monkey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Our babies, hours after being born, at less than 8 pounds start getting vaccines, when their own immune system has not even kicked in yet and you think that is okay, but you kick a real study to the side for what? Lack of a fancy lab to work in?

    THe reason this study is so significant is that it clearly shows that a monkey, our closest relative, has the same effects after being bombarded with toxins, chemicals and viruses.

    Wow.

    To any and all of you — WHAT WILL IT TAKE?

  • Mary

    HCN, that was 24 YEARS ago and my entire point is that there are children DYING with vaccines so what have we gained. A mother still loses a child, correct?

    And in addition to death, again listed right on the insert of each and every vaccine, we also have more than 30 listed autoimmunity disorders, cancer coming out the arse, learning disabilities and a total dumbing down of Americans.

    What have we gained?

    If you can still catch measles with two doses of the vaccine then the vaccine DOES not work and why bother?

    I give up – I could tell you that most cheddar cheese is orange and you’d argue about that one block of cheese you knew about 24 years ago that wasn’t orange.

    Also, Dahl estimates that 20 children a year will die in Britian — HELLO, read VAERS, 20 children a year are already dying without measles…………

  • Mary

    And HCN, I love to see that your ONE source is nothing more than an author and his one child being harmed by a 1962 case of measles – at first I missed that this letter was from 1986 — back before one in every 150 children were affected but Autism.

    If this is the best you can do HCN, I guess we’re done here.

  • HCN

    Nah, I was just saying you were smarter than Roald Dahl. So what if his oldest daughter died less than 24 hours of her first measles symptoms. Obviously in “Mary World” this meant that she had sub-par health and did not deserve to live.

    Much like the reaction I get when I mention my son has had seizures and a severe genetic heart condition. Some of those who live in your world think he deserves the diseases and severe outcomes. Just like how Kassiane suffered when she contracted pertussis from an un-vaxed kid.

    Though there is this list of 23 papers (only on the MMR):
    http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4026.pdf

    Not that you would care. Since you know more than anyone. Including those of us who have adult children with disabilities. Or adults with disabilities (like Kassiane).

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    HCN, darlin’–that’s evolution, baby. Just ask Mary. Or maybe it’s karma. I get those things confused. All I know, is that all of us totally suck as parents, officially, as of this comment thread.

    Is there a volume on this thing?

  • HCN
  • HCN

    And, this list of studies (only shows just a few years, there is a link on the bottom for more):
    http://www.immunize.org/journalarticles/conc_aut.asp

    Some samples:
    Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde
    Authors: Schechter R, Grether JK
    Source: Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24

    Lack of Association between Rh Status, Rh Immune Globulin in Pregnancy and Autism
    Authors: Miles JH, Takahashi TN
    Source: Am J Med Genet, May 16, 2007 [Epub ahead of print]

    Prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorders – Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network, Six Sites, United States, 2000; Prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorders – Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network, 14 Sites, United States, 2002; and Evaluation of a Methodology for a Collaborative Multiple Source Surveillance Network for Autism Spectrum Disorders -Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring Network, 14 Sites, United States, 2002
    Source: MMWR, February 9, 2007; SS-1:1-44

    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan
    Authors: Uchiyama T, Kurosawa M, Inaba Y
    Source: J Autism Dev Disord, February 2007; 37(2):210-217

    Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
    Authors: Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
    Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Links? Science? Psha. Nonsense. Nothing trumps the power of magical thinking.

  • Mary

    Emily – are you blind? I’ve already listed several sources.

    HCN, I never, never, never said anything of the sort. You are inferring complete generalities that do not apply to me in the least.

    I am advocating for less to no vaccines in our babies at birth. I said nothing of anyone’s right to live.

    Disease is a part of our world, how would vaccines have saved Kassiane from injury when the vaccine isn’t even effective? Every year children come down with whooping cough despite a huge % of vaccinated children, so do please give me your insights on to how that works?

    Clearly whooping cough is a cyclical condition that can affect you, vaccine or no vaccine. And how do YOU know or even Kassiane know that the child that supposedly gave her pertussis was or wasn’t vaccinated?

    How do YOU know it wasn’t a recently vaccinated child that was sloughing off the virus?

    Your argument and put downs do not even make sense since I have two injured children, a mother who is already dead from toxins and inflammation issues of my own.

    I think you just like to hear yourself talk as you clearly aren’t reading what I write.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Mary, Emily is not blind, nor deaf, nor dumb (the way that you are) (no offence meant toward the speaking impaired). Your references are, shall we say “uh, not very pubmed in my book”. Do you have any references that are on PubMed?

    You are out of your league here. Emily has forgotten more science than you will ever know. Maybe your fancy diatribes and delusional beliefs and magical thinking work with the other reality impaired anti-vaxers you hang out with, you need to come up with something more to hold your own here.

    Something like actual data, actual studies, actual science, you know stuff that is actually true and not just more made-up anti-vax lies.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Yes, the toxins have made me blind.

    By the way, I can’t find anything on PubMed about a causative link between vaccines and JRA, in which I have a personal interest. Would you be so kind as to provide the case report that undoubtedly must have arisen from the demonstrated connection you cite, given its novelty? I’m curious as to how the etiology was established. I know that joint inflammation can be a side effect of some vaccines, but have not seen a causative link between vaccines and a chronic autoimmune disorder like JRA.

  • Mary

    As if I have to explain my child’s JRA to you – but, a 30 + year specialist in RA, out of Kansas City stood face to face with me and verified that her JRA was a reaction to her series of shots. My child, at 1-year-old went from running and walking to crawling and walking with a limp less than 30 days after her shots. She woke up screaming blood curdling screams less than a week after her shots. She was crying, restless and not able to sleep from her shots on. She spent four years on medications most adults wouldn’t want to take and steroid shots to her knee. The arthritis tried to attack every bit of her body and there were portions of time she couldn’t even walk.

    Who in the hell are you to question me about what my child went through? I can track every last second of every day since she got those stupid, unneeded, toxic chemicals shot into her body. I was also told by the specialist to NOT get her any more vaccines now that her immune system was compromised. Which, in turn, started my quest for real answers and not BS money making PR from vaccine makers.

    Read below, arthritis is listed right there. The “type” of arthritis that is manifested may be different from person to person. And if you can’t find anything between arthritis and vaccines then you aren’t looking hard enough. Visit a medical library and actually start digging if you really do have an interest.

    http://www.immunize.org/fda/#mmr

    MMR – Merck

    ADVERSE REACTIONS
    The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality, within each body system category and have been reported during clinical trials, with use of the marketed vaccine, or with use of monovalent or bivalent vaccine containing measles, mumps, or rubella:
    Body as a Whole
    Panniculitis; atypical measles; fever; syncope; headache; dizziness; malaise; irritability.
    Cardiovascular System
    Vasculitis.
    Digestive System
    Pancreatitis; diarrhea; vomiting; parotitis; nausea.
    Endocrine System
    Diabetes mellitus.
    Hemic and Lymphatic System
    Thrombocytopenia (see WARNINGS, Thrombocytopenia); purpura; regional lymphadenopathy; leukocytosis.
    Immune System
    Anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions have been reported as well as related phenomena such as angioneurotic edema (including peripheral or facial edema) and bronchial spasm in individuals with or without an allergic history.
    Musculoskeletal System
    Arthritis; arthralgia; myalgia.
    Arthralgia and/or arthritis (usually transient and rarely chronic), and polyneuritis are features of infection with wild-type rubella and vary in frequency and severity with age and sex, being greatest in adult females and least in prepubertal children. This type of involvement as well as myalgia and paresthesia, have also been reported following administration of MERUVAX II.
    Chronic arthritis has been associated with wild-type rubella infection and has been related to persistent virus and/or viral antigen isolated from body tissues. Only rarely have vaccine recipients developed chronic joint symptoms.
    Following vaccination in children, reactions in joints are uncommon and generally of brief duration. In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),17,52,53 and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years. In adolescent girls, the reactions appear to be intermediate in incidence between those seen in children and in adult women. Even in women older than 35 years, these reactions are generally well tolerated and rarely interfere with normal activities.
    Nervous System
    Encephalitis; encephalopathy; measles inclusion body encephalitis (MIBE) (see CONTRAINDICATIONS); subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE); Guillain-Barré Syndrome (GBS); febrile convulsions; afebrile convulsions or seizures; ataxia; polyneuritis; polyneuropathy; ocular palsies; paresthesia.

  • Mary

    DAE – uh, what? Not hold my own because I can’t send you to articles on PubMed? LOL

    Okay.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    I knew the kid who gave me pertussis. His mother is a flaming MORON who thinks OMGZ VAXXEENZ EET BABEEZ and brought her hacking sick kids to gymnastics. She knew they had whooping cough when she brought them. I know this because *she told me*.

    An infant died during that outbreak. I was sicker than hell and still have sequelae (problems, in sciencese). This was last March.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    It’s mildly ironic that you ask me “who the hell I am” to query your assertion of a direct link between a vaccine and your daughter’s JRA when you’ve pretty much done nothing on here but accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with you of being a horrible, irresponsible, blind parent willfully poisoning their children, based on no actual evidence whatsoever.

    I’m aware of the Merck list. JRA isn’t on it. Arthritis is inflammation of the joints and is listed, and the relationship between inflammation in response to virus (note the reference to “wild-type” rubella) or vaccine is a commonly recognized one (and in response to many other viral illnesses, for that matter). I’m asking specifically about JRA, which is a name given to a suite of conditions all characterized by autoimmune, chronic arthritis in children. It would seem that all you have is anecdote…your own. And as we’ve learned here, As Mary Goes…So Must the World Go.

    Since you seem to be at a loss, I’ll give you this ancient paper from PubMed (copy and paste):
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/48775?dopt=Abstract

    It suggests a link between reaction to rubella and JRA. Doesn’t address vaccines, just antibody titers. It’s going to be a chicken-egg thing; i.e., which came first, the viral trigger or the JRA response to infection?

    I’m not going to make you think I’m condescending to you by sympathizing with you about your daughter (although I do). But what happened to her does not somehow make it OK for you to go cacacoocoo and start throwing furniture and accusing just about everyone of willingly or blindly participating in a global conspiracy of death and disability at the most and of horrific parenting practices at the least. Your accusations are heavy, indeed, and completely without merit. Presumptuous, at the least. Why? Does it defuse and diffuse your anger over…what you feel like you did to your daughter by allowing her to be vaccinated? You’re obviously really mad about something.

  • Mary

    K – a mother that hauls a whooping cough kid around is a Moron and has NOTHING whatsoever to do with me.

    I despise people who haul their sick kids around, let them get the place disgusting and then wonder why no one will sit by them. I also despise people who have sick kids and don’t understand the first thing about nursing their own child back to health.

    And, if YOU had been vaccinated, why oh why didn’t YOUR vaccine work?

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Despise, despise. Despise. How can you see with that plank in your eye?

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    *puts on patronizing voice*

    I’m sure you’re aware that after 10 years or so, the vaccines pretty much wear off, thus why we need to keep vaccinating our children.

    Added to that, I am on prednisone for an otherwise fatal medical condition. It kind of squashed my immune system. Not like that’s YOUR business. Kids with pertussis shouldn’t have been at the gym.

  • Mary

    I’ve tried several times to post, so not sure if this will show up but Kassiane if you have an immune system that is that bad, perhaps YOU should stay home or wear a mask.

    Also, I agree, a mother should not have a sick child out and about, both for the sake of others and the sake of the child.

    Also, Emily, how is it this murdering liar also has a big old plank in her eye? Maybe it’s time to look inward and realize you are not God any more than I am and scientist have been wrong before.

  • Mary

    And another think Kassiane, your immune system being so depleted is exactly why you should not be getting vaccines. Your body is already fighting a battle and then you put toxins on top of that and viruses and your body just can’t do it all.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Mary, you are dangerously ignorant and dangerously misinformed.

    You have not posted a single reference from PubMed, but condesendingly reject Orac’s post as “uh, not very pubmed in my book”.

    Who is on the ego trip here? Let me give you a hint. It is someone who thinks she knows more than all of medical science put together.

  • HCN

    Mary said “And another think Kassiane, your immune system being so depleted is exactly why you should not be getting vaccines.”

    Hence her reliance on herd immunity. Kind of like these boys:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece

    Then you continued “then you put toxins on top of that “… what toxins? Are they worse than tetanospasmin?

    By the way, though in your head while you may not think that saying “measles/pertussis/Hib is only bad for kids who are not healthy” is saying that kids like mine (or an adult like Kassiane) do not deserve protection or to live. That is how it comes across.

    I would suggest you think very hard about saying on a blog frequented by parents and adults with autism and other disabilities which have other health issues (some minor, some major) when you claim all you need is to have a healthy child to survive the illness! (which begs the question, why would a vaccine with the fraction of antigens be worse than the disease?)

    Then, of course, there are you accusations that our kids would do fine against disease if they were fully breastfed and fed organic food. Pray tell, how is that supposed to prevent hypertrophic cardiomyopathy with obstruction? I know for sure that breastfeeding did not prevent chicken pox in my six-month old daughter, who was still refusing solid food and was ONLY on a diet of breastmilk. Babies are very vulnerable to bad things happening with varicella, she was very lucky (though neither us got much sleep for two weeks, itchy babies do not sleep, they scream).

    (by the way, there is a significant fraction of women who have medical reasons for not being able to breastfeed, like one woman I knew who had a very high risk pregnancy and had to go on medication after the birth to keep herself alive, but prevented breastfeeding — and then there are all the babies who were adopted)

    I’m sure you don’t even think that the over quarter of a million kids who still die from measles each year are worth a mention, because they are in Africa. Who cares about little kids in a third world country on the other side of the globe? Though, what is remarkable that there are people who do think about them. From the Measles Initiative website (limiting myself to one URL) it says “In 2000, measles caused approximately 757,000 deaths, mostly children under five. By 2006, measles deaths were reduced to 242,000 people worldwide– a remarkable drop of 68 percent. The reduction was even greater in Africa where measles deaths plunged by more than 91 percent.”

  • Mary

    Dea – yes, I have posted from pubmed, but again, not good enough. Yes, I have posted references and listed books read, none of you have done the dame, still not good enough.

    Dangerously misinformed.

    Tell you what. I’ll raise my family as naturally as I can and you continue to buy into the hype that is the medical establishment (of course including all the vaccines you can possibly get) and we’ll just see who does better.

    I’m done. This isn’t a conversation is a gang bang, and I’m just not that into you.

  • HCN

    I went up thread and found one book Mary referenced: “Source: The Virus and the Vaccine written by two very well known and well respected journalists who expose the polio vaccine for what it really was and is. A joke.”

    Ah, yeah… that is really good. Not.

    Some much better books:
    Polio, An American Story by David Oshinsky

    The Cutter Incident by Paul Offit

    Not Even Wrong by Paul Collins

    Unstrange Minds by Roy Richard Grinker

    Vaccinated by Paul Offit

    Also, looking up thread I see lots of people posted lots of references. Included myself and Emily just today and yesterday. (by the way, Emily, you rock!)

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Hi, HCN–
    Actually, I’m feeling kind of bad for being so flip before. I admire the folks who really just take this on (again and again and again) straightforwardly and patiently; my default setting is smart-ass. Patience is not a particulary well-exercised trait of mine. I like your contributions here, a lot. They’re always informative.

    Daedalus, I’ve had NO on the brain lately…ha ha. I’ve been seeing it again and again in some things I’ve been editing.

  • HCN

    Thanks Emily.

    Speaking of brain (getting off topic), you should read this week’s Zits comics. Your boys may be a bit young, but you can get an idea of what to look forward to (even my severely learning disabled son, from ignoring chores, putting clean laundry on the bed, and on and on). This week the main character, Jeremy, is having finals and his brain has left his head:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/artsandliving/comics/king_zits.html?name=Zits

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Aww, Mary is a EUGENICIST.

    It’s ok for her kids to kill me (and for the record, my 5mg prednisone doesn’t wipe out my immune system THAT badly. I caught virulent whooping cough that a shit-ton of people over the age of 20 caught. I just caught it worse than most). Because people like ME don’t deserve to live in her perfect little world.

    But if HER precious babies get sick, oh noes! It had to be big pharma because HER genes are pure and lily white!

    (Yes, hefty on the smartassery. That’s how I respond to not being worthy of life-with heavy sarcasm).

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Another vote for the Oshinky book.

    (And of course for the 2 by Offit and Grinker’s and Collins’ too.)

  • Mary

    Kassiane, you are truly an idiot.

    Just one story for all you vaccine lovers:

    Hello my family, I wanted to share with you just some of the information I have learned about what happened to my granddaughter, Abigail MacHutta Kearney.

    I am convinced that the medical establishment and drug companies murdered my granddaughter Abby. Last Monday she was given a MMR vaccine for mumps, measles and rubella. At the same time she was given a booster shot for the main strains of meningitis and a TB inoculation. Any one of these vaccinations will put a strain on the childs immune system. All together at the same time is a crime. Abby came down with a high fever Saturday night and was brain dead on Sunday night. She was removed from life support Monday evening.

    The MMR vaccine contains live virus that have been downgraded in potency. In many cases it will cause a mild case of the mumps. The mumps are known to cause spinal meningitis, the exact cause of death for Abby. These bastards gave that little child 3 deadly vaccines at the same time. Her immune system was compromised and couldn’t protect her from the onslaught. Mary told me that she had reservations about giving her all those vaccines but the doctor assured her she would be just fine. Fine, my ass, those bastards along with the pharmaceutical companies killed my little granddaughter.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Mary, More than many condolences to the family. If I may ask, what is the source of your story?

  • Mary

    Why? Would it change the story? That’s what most people do, they listen and then they try to find aspects to pick apart and make it “not real” any longer.

    Another baby that recently died was in our military unit. A young couple had just taken their 4 month old in for her series of vaccines. She was dead less than 48 hours later. My husband personally attended her funeral as I was home with four kids. The couple had had a mini birthday cake for their baby every week since she’d been born and the photos were all over the funeral. Just another coincidence. Not to me.

    More to ALS and vaccines:
    From What Doctors Don’t Tell You UK
    The Deadly Dozen Careers: Will your job increase your chances of motor neurone disease?
    29 May 2008
    Are you a firefighter? A printer? Or perhaps you’re a beautician. Researchers have just identified the 12 careers that are most likely to result in the motor neurone disease ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis).

    In fact, you are anything between 2.5 to 4.3 times more likely to develop the disease if your career is among the ‘deadly dozen’.

    The ‘at risk’ careers are: beauticians, pharmacists, morticians, chemists, laboratory technicians, physicians, veterinarians, dentists, firefighters, photographers, printers and nurses.

    The real culprit is the chemical formaldehyde, which scientists have discovered is a major cause of ALS. Scientists originally thought that exposure to most pesticides triggered ALS, but researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health narrowed it down to just one after they tracked 1 million individuals who were regularly exposed to 12 different chemicals.

    Over the following 15 years, 1,156 people died from ALS, and the vast majority had had a high exposure to formaldehyde during their working lives.

    (Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, 2008; 299: 2375-6).

    Guess what a major ingredient is to most vaccines?

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Well, Mary, the subject here is autism and alleged links to vaccines. So I think what you are discussing here is veering away from the main subject matter.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Occupational exposure hazards are far far different from the relatively miniscule exposures via vaccinations. The dose makes the poison. Exposure to water by the appropriate routes and in a high enough dose will kill you.

    “First, formaldehyde is essential in human metabolism and is required for the synthesis of DNA and amino acids (the building blocks of protein). Therefore, all humans have detectable quantities of natural formaldehyde in their circulation (about 2.5 ug of formaldehyde per ml of blood). Assuming an average weight of a 2-month-old of 5 kg and an average blood volume of 85 ml per kg, the total quantity of formaldehyde found in an infant’s circulation would be about 1.1 mg — a value at least five-fold greater than that to which an infant would be exposed in vaccines.”

  • Mary

    So, let me get this right to Emily and Kristina: you are saying that some babies are expendable so that people like Kassiane don’t get pertussis and that vaccines can and do kill, but there’s NO way they are a part of autism.

    Uh, okay.

    And toward the quantity in vaccines, we as a society barely understand the immune system of a baby before six months old, but we know so much that we can determine what will or will not cause autism. Do you see the ego here?

    I contend that vaccines are a direct link to autism, as is a lack of breastfeeding, environmental toxins and chemicals in our lives and food. I don’t think it’s just one thing. I think it’s an overload of a lot of things, vaccines being the biggest and worst.

    Keep in mind, you and I have NOTHING in common, other than vaccines, so why do you think that autism is the only condition that is not and never was able to be triggered, induced, aggravated, use whatever term you want, by vaccines.

    The logic is gone. You can throw all the studies and big words you want out there. You can scream and belittle, it still doesn’t change the fact that with the increase in the vaccine schedule, has come and increase in autism, cancer, diabetes, arthritis, ADD, ADHD, learning disabilities, obesity, Alzheimer’s, ALS, Parkinson’s, etc.

    And there is a HUGE difference between a naturally occuring compound in our bodies, that OUR bodies produce, and having it shot into our veins via vaccines. HUGE. The fact that you dont’ get that boggles the mind.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Mary, you are so illogical that there’s no point in discussing anything with you. It’s impossible. I don’t mean that to be ugly; it’s just true. You insist on drawing conclusions without a premise, over and over and over again, and you seem primarily to obtain fuel from irrational anger. You accuse people of “throwing” studies and “big words” out there and accuse people of “screaming,” but you are the one who keeps taking that big ol’ leap right off the deep end here. Take a break. Anger is drama. Try to excise the drama and see what you have left.

  • Mary

    What?

    How is the death of two babies that were directly related to vaccines a leap of illogical thinking? Do tell.

    How is the injury of my two daughters directly related to vaccines an illogical leap of thinking? Do tell.

    Drawing conclusions without a premise. Do you even hear yourself? It’s like arguing with a liberal. They talk circles until the original question and objective is completely lost in the shuffle.

    I contend that vaccines are dangerous vials of death and crippling children left and right. HCN said I couldn’t come up with a handful of injuries and I’ve just shown you two deaths and two injuries without even trying.

    And again, while you are throwing words back in my face, you are saying nothing as to the actual damage to children, yours, mine, and others. You are saying nothing really………..

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Mary, I appreciate the time and energy you’ve put into your comments. The subject of vaccines is one of many topics on this weblog, which is about autism, and the sort of pronouncements you are making about vaccines and health while not unfamiliar, do not further understanding about autism, and further undermine arguments in support of a vaccine-autism link.

  • Mary

    So you are politely asking me to leave because my opinion just doesn’t gel with the irrational and misinformed opinions presented here as to the wonderful world that is vaccination……….

    LOL

    No problem.

  • Erwin Alber

    Kristina,

    For another horrific story of how a girl was killed by vaccination, google “Death by Lethal Vaccine Injection” on Dr Kim’s website.

    The medical so-called authorities would have us believe that vaccines are safe, but they neither have a clue about the widespread damage vaccines cause, nor do they want to now. This is quite understandable, because if they were aware of the maiming and killing they are responsible for, they would have to suspend all vaccination programmes.

    Abolishing all vaccinations would have the added benefit of eliminating vaccines as a possible cause of autism and then allow scientists to pinpoint any remaining possible causes of autism.

  • Erwin Alber

    To Mary,
    I think there is a passage in the Bible saying something like “When the darkness encounters light, the darkness doesn’t understand the light”.

    As far as I am concerned, you are the light in this debate, and those who live in darkness just don’t understand what you are and where you are coming from.

    Or, as the saying goes, “you can lead the horse to the water, but you can’t make it drink”.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Actually, some of us are just busy swimming in the ocean at any time of day……thanks for the link.

  • a long-time poster

    Beware of the false light.

  • HCN

    You never know if it is the light at the end of the tunnel or an oncoming train!

  • Erwin Alber

    HCN,
    Just like the malaria situation is not particularly relevant to developed countries, it is also silly to compare measles deaths in Africa with those in industrialised nations.

    Also, African children die from mealses mainly because they are malnourished and often because their ignorant parents put babies and children with a fever out into the chilly African night “to cool off”.

    It would make far more sense to make sure these children get enough to eat, to give them Vitamin A especially if they are sick with measles and to ensure proper medical treatment rather than injecting them with toxic vaccines likely to make matters worse or even kill them.

    Google and read “The Dr A Kalokerinos interview” and read Mary’s comments to get clued up. Mary has more common sense than most medical doctors put together.

  • Erwin Alber

    To Kev:
    Just a little rave in response to your little rave, “People used to ‘know’ the sun orbited the Earth. They used to ‘know’ the earth was flat. Maybe you should rely less on your personal anecdotes which mean precisely zero and start looking at some science.”

    It was actually mainstream establishment,church-sponsored “science” of the day which promoted the idea of the earth being flat and of the sun orbiting the earth, keeping people in ignorance.

    Anyone daring to contradict the establishment was threatened with being burned at the stake for their impertinence of trying to expose the fallacy of these beliefs.

    Today, the church of medicine promoting the medical superstition that vaccines are a safe and effective way of preventing diseases, and ridicules anyone who points out how ludicrous and idiotc this claim is.

    Hopefully, vaccinations along with vaccination theory will be aded to the rubbish heap of bizarre and obsolete medical interventions, in the not too distant future.

  • HCN
  • Regan

    Thanks HCN.
    If Mr. Alber and the like-minded get their wishes, expect to see more of such stories in the future.

  • Chuck

    Lola-Mae recovered with no ill effects. It isn’t like she is one of the statistical 36,000 deaths in the US from the flu. Seeing stories where there are no ill effects doesn’t make for “good” news.

  • HCN

    But the hospital cost lots more than the vaccine. The stress and worry of a sick child can be considered an ill effect.

    Also it has nothing to do with flu.

    Tell us again what real evidence shows that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous and costly than mumps, measles and rubella. I missed where you posted that documentation.

  • HCN

    Also, it is obvious that you have never had a small child in the hospital. Having had a child hospitalized multiple times between the age of 48 hours to three years old, it is something I think any good parent would strive to avoid.

    Do not ever trivialize illness and hospitalization.

  • Erwin Alber

    To Emily, regarding her reply to Mary:

    So do you expect parents wose children are injured or destroyed by vaccinations to remain calm and collected and keep on smiling?

    “My daughter Janet, now 25, was born in 1972, apparently normal. She had a mild reaction to the 3 month DPT vaccination followed by a very serious reaction immediately after the repeat injection at age 5 months. Janet collapsed into a coma, stopped breathing momentarily and consequently suffered massive and irreversible brain damage. She was in hospital for two weeks, undergoing many tests and examinations before being discharged with a diagnosis of encephalitis and a very poor prognosis. “We lose some of these little ones” were the actual words of the doctor in charge of her case. Janet’s life was ruined as she never fully recovered from the effects of vaccination. She now is in a residential home for the severely handicapped.”

    Mrs. M. B., New Zealand, 1997

    “My son Brendon was a normal baby at birth. At 3 months he had his triple vaccination DPT. He was irritable and jumpy afterwards and his whole nature seemed to change. After 2 weeks he started high-pitched screaming that went for hours; he eventually settled down for the night. However upon waking he seemed limp and grey and his eyes became fixed – obviously a fit. I called my doctor who came and said there was nothing wrong. However, all weekend he went on the same, about every 1/2 hour. I took him to the weekend doctor who said there was nothing wrong and that I was neurotic. These fits went on for 2 months before he referred me to a paediatrician. I must have had 12 visits to the doctor with him in this time. My doctor gave my son the second vaccination the day he phoned the paediatrician.

    The paediatrician had him admitted to hospital immediately, where he underwent numerous tests. He was then sent to Palmerston North where he had an EEG. Upon receiving the results, I was told my son was epileptic, that his nervous system was badly damaged and that he would be terriby retarded. I was not until Brendon was about 1 year old that I was told it was the whooping cough vaccine which had caused the damage, but in the same instance I was told that more children would die by not having it.

    Brndon was put on Mogadone and other drugs, but the fits continued, some lasting for 1/2 an hour or more, with him having to be rushed to hospital quite frequently. Eventually I was referred to Wellington hospital, where the doctor told me at the end ot tests that it was the whooping cough vaccine. He changed the drugs a bit but it didn’t make any difference.

    Later, the Sunday News published an article about Brendon in which it challenged the Health Department. At this stage the Minister of Health had said that he knew of no cases of severe reactions in New Zealand.

    Brendon is now a patient in Kimberley Hospital in Levin. He is severely brain-damaged, epileptic and also blind. He doesn’t speak at all, is on anti-convulsants all the time but still has severe fits and most of the day just sits, rocking backwards and forwards.”

    Mrs D. B., Napier, New Zealand

    “When my son Hayden was 7 weeks old, he was admitted to hospital for apnoea (disturbed breathing) and weight loss. He was given a check-up, declared well and given the DPT-vaccine.

    Two hours later he had a high fever and refused to feed. He was irritable and his knee 2 inches below the vaccination site was swollen. His leg and kee were very red. I asked if this was a reaction to the vaccination but was told it was not. He was diagnosed with “cellulitis” of the knee and put on a drip for 4 days.

    When Hayden was 3 months old, I took him to the surgery for his second DPT shot. After 5 apnoea attacks that night, we took him to the hospital. We asked if it was a reaction to the vaccine, but were assured there was no connection.

    At 5 months I took Hayden to the GP for his third DPT injection, which was given at 10.30 am. At 11.15 his whole thigh was swollen and had a rash. By 12.30 Hayden started high pitched screaming and his neck and back were arching so much that his head was touching his feet behind is back. He had a fever of 40 deg C and was inconsolable.

    At 2.30 we took him back to the GP. He was rushed to Middlemore Hospital and from there by ambulance to Princess Mary hospital. Now, 8 hours after the vaccination, he still had a high fever and was irritable and still screaming, his head and feet touching.

    By 11 pm, 12 hours after the vaccination, Hayden was starting to settle down. He even smiled, but seconds later would be screaming and backarching. He was very unsettled and then slept for 24 hours. 4 days later he was lethargic. No one at the hospital told us that our son had a neurological reaction, but his hospital notes say “Severe reaction to the DPT-vaccination.”

    It turned out that the vaccination had caused an encephalopathy (brain injury). He was awarded accident compensation for CPI (Complex Personal Injury), in 1997. Our son is now 10 years old and suffers from sensory, cognitive, behavioural and communicative disorders. A clinical neuropsychologist found my son’s responses consistent with impaired frontal lobe functioning and development and organic brain dysfunction.

    What happened to my son will affect him for the rest of his life. How I wish I could turn the clocks back, as it was I who took our son to the doctor and allowed them to vaccinate him. I wonder why I listened to the medical people and trusted them when they told me the reactios at 7 weeks and 3 months were unrelated to the vaccinations. I know I should have stooped after the first rection, but my awareness has come too late for my son.

    I have written this down in the hope that it may help other parents avoid making the same mistake. If you think the vaccination has caused a problem, DON’T vaccinate again.

    Perhaps my son will unerstand when he is older. He may even forgive me. I hope so.”

    Mrs. S. R., Auckland, New Zealand, 1997

    This is just a tiny sample of the countless tragedies cause by vaccinations. Do you now understand why some of us, including Mary and myself, are a bit sceptical about the alleged benefits of vaccinations?

  • Erwin Alber

    “If there has been a more harmful urban legend circulating in our society than the vaccine-autism link, it is hard to know what it might be.”

    Arthur Caplan

    No, don’t think it’s very hard to know. In my opinion, the most harmful urban legend circulating in our society is the persisting but fallacious claim that vaccines are a safe and effective way of preventing diseases and saving lives.

  • Mary

    Thank you Erwin.

    HCN, I’m not sure if you are writing to me or not, but I”m the mother of two vaccine injured children. I spent more than a few days in hospitals for both girls, both vaccine injured.

    As well as my mother already having died of ALS, which is highly linked to formaldahyde (sp) and we all know that is a key ingredient in vaccines, of which she had plenty.

    I’m still “done” but your assertion that having a child in the hospital somehow makes vaccines safe and effective, of which they are neither, is silly.

    Also, I am hoping the person that put the 36,000 dead from flu realizes that is a hyped up number with totally no real facts behind it. Right? I think the poster knows that, but for the rest of you to know it is important as well.

  • Mary

    AFP
    NEW DELHI — India has recalled over four million doses of a measles vaccine supplied by a south Indian drug manufacturer after four children died following inoculation with the drug, reports said Friday. “All state governments have been instructed to stop use of the measles vaccine manufactured by the Indian Immunological Limited until further orders,” Health Minister Anbumani Ramadoss told the Press Trust of India news agency. Further supplies from the manufacturer have also been halted, he said.

    February 16, 2008
    Deaths Associated with HPV Vaccine Start Rolling In, Over 3500 Adverse Affects Reported
    TORONTO, September 20, 2007 (LifeSiteNews. com) – As Canada, in large part due to aggressive behind the scenes lobbying, rolls out the not-comprehensively -tested Merck HPV vaccine for girls as young as nine, a look at developments on the vaccine south of the border should cause Canadians serious concern. In the United States a similar lobby campaign by the same company launched the mass HPV vaccination of girls beginning in June last year.

    In just little over a year, the HPV vaccine has been associated with at least five deaths, not to mention thousands of reports of adverse effects, hundreds deemed serious, and many that required hospitalization.

    *Rotavirus vaccine approved a few weeks ago
    http://www.theskept icsguide. org/sgublog/ ?p=196

    *Vaccine deaths
    http://www.vaccinet ruth.org/ vaccine_deaths. htm

  • Mary

    **India recalls measles vaccine after 4 children died and has halted further supplies…AFTER 4 CHILDREN DIED!

    Do you think India knows something that we (US) do not?

    ……..India sure has done something (taken the issue of death due to vaccination) very seriously… .something that our own government has not!!!**

    A comment to which I agree with all my heart.

  • HCN

    Mary, no… I am not.

    Anyway, I thought you were leaving, again.

  • Mary

    Touche’ HCN, Touche’.

  • Chuck

    “Tell us again what real evidence shows that the MMR vaccine is more dangerous and costly than mumps, measles and rubella. I missed where you posted that documentation.”

    Tell us again where it says that MMR is 100% safe and 100% effective and this could have happened even if she was vaccinated. I missed that documentation.

  • Chuck

    Oh, by the way I would have thanked God if I was done hospitalizing my child at the age of three due to vaccine preventable illnesses (plural).

  • HCN

    “Tell us again where it says that MMR is 100% safe and 100% effective and this could have happened even if she was vaccinated. I missed that documentation.”

    It says that no where, and no one has ever claimed it to be 100% safe. Now tell me where it is documented that the MMR is more dangerous than mumps, measles or rubella.

    (by the way, my son’s issues did not end with hospitalizations, they did include ten years of speech therapy, continued learning disabilities and a life-long cardiac condition that makes him more vulnerable to those vaccine preventable diseases… Again, stop trivializing illness and hospitalizations — it is painfully obvious that you have no clue about it).

  • Chuck

    The ONLY thing that is PAINFULLY obvious is that YOU DO NOT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT ME OR MY FAMILY.

    Tell me where mumps, measles or rubella is more dangerous then the flu.

  • HCN

    The real problem is that measles will leave between 1 to 5 kids out of 2000 unable to leave the hospital in something other than a coffin (the death rate during the last American outbreak between 1989 and 1991 was over 2 per 1000, J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77, Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002). And about 1 out of a 2000 with permanent neurological damage (deafness, blindness or mental retardation).

    Then there is mumps, which itself caused permanent deafness in large numbers back in the good ol’ days (in the outbreak a couple of years ago in the American Midwest at least four people became permanently deafened, about a dozen men became sterile in an outbreak of less than 3000 cases: Update: multistate outbreak of mumps–United States, January 1-May 2, 2006.
    MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2006 May 26;55(20):559-63.).

    Also, back in the good ol’ days of the early 1960s congenital rubella caused deafness, blindness, stillbirth and a form of autism.

    Those are real historical facts. There are lots of reviews in the published literature, including this review of the reduction of mental retardation:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302 … which has this quote “Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis.36, 39 Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as MR.39 We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to MR.”

    Now where is the documentation and papers linking the MMR to autism? What are the numbers? Are they greater than 1 in 5000 cases? Give us some real documentation, not lawyer paid studies that were withdrawn by most of the authors, or in journals that where all an author has to do is pay to get published.

  • HCN

    I am not talking about influenza, I asking specifically about the MMR.

  • HCN

    From:
    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/298/18/2155

    “Influenza is not covered in this study; assessing the effects of influenza vaccine requires a different approach than is used for other vaccine-preventable diseases because the prevalent influenza viruses and vaccine change annually, and yearly vaccination is required for protection. ”

    Now please tell me where it is documented that the MMR is riskier than measles, mumps or rubella.

  • http://crimsonthought.blogspot.com Cliff

    “The ONLY thing that is PAINFULLY obvious is that YOU DO NOT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT ME OR MY FAMILY.”

    I’m largely staying out of these arguments, because they generally wind down to ad hominems and assertions of authenticity, and those tend to be arguments that no one can strictly speaking win. However, the “exclusively mine” argument is rather antidemocratic, not to mention a serious impediment to an actual discussion of the topic. So, while avoiding strictly playing moderator, I would at least note that such an argument is completely useless, as, unless you would like to follow up by an explanation for the series of tests you took in which it was proven that your family physiology was distinctly different than everyone else’s, you’re assuming a contested factor which is being directly argued against by saying that it is exclusive without reason to its exclusiveness.

    Cliff

  • Chuck

    The only things I have said about the MMR is that Lola-Mae recovered with no ill effects and the current death rate for Measles in this country is statistically less than that of influenza, both of which have vaccines.

    In Lola-Mae’s case, contracting measles had the same long term heath results for most of the general population that receive the MMR, none. In the UK with universal healthcare, financial cost is irrelevant. There is always emotional cost for every caring parent of every sick child. The only way to say one parent’s emotional cost is more than another’s would be to say that one child is more important than another. Are you implying that ? I don’t think that you are.

  • Chuck

    If we don’t live in the historical rate for ASD of 1960 or 1991 then why should we live in the historical rate of anything else?

  • Erwin Alber

    “Now please tell me where it is documented that the MMR is riskier than measles, mumps or rubella”

    The point is that MMR is a completely unnecessary risk, while measles present an acceptable risk, and even benefits:

    - measles challenge, prime and mature children’s immune systems.

    - some children who get measles experience an alleviation of chronic ailments such as allergies or asthma afterwards.

    - in most instances, measles result in lifelong immunity.

    - people who have had childhood illnesses in their pre-school years are less at risk of degenerative diseases including some types of cancers later in life

    - parents report remarkable growth spurts in their children after they have overcome measles.

    Some infectious childhood illnesses like measles seem to be a necessary step in children’s development. Vaccinations interfere with this natural process to the detriment of the child.

    In some European countries parents still know that measles are beneficial and organise “measles parties” where children who haven’t had measles are sent to play with a child who is sick in bed with measles. They want the childhood illnesses do be done and over with by the time the child goes to school, as these same illnesses are more likely to lead to complications if the child is older, say a teenager.

  • Erwin Alber

    “The real problem is that measles will leave between 1 to 5 kids out of 2000 unable to leave the hospital in something other than a coffin (the death rate during the last American outbreak between 1989 and 1991 was over 2 per 1000, J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77, Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002). And about 1 out of a 2000 with permanent neurological damage (deafness, blindness or mental retardation). ”

    If I interpret your figures correctly, 1 to 5 children who are hospitalised with measles die.

    Because the total number of measles cases is likely to be far higher than that of hospitalised children, the death rate, while seemingly high, is nevertheless quite low.

    Also, the figures say nothing about the vaccination status or the socio-economic or medical background of the children who died, supposedly of measles.

    In New Zealand, the (so-called) health authorities made sure the news that two hildren had died of measles during an epidemic was splattered all over the media. What they didn’t say was that both children were suffering from serious underlying medical conditions which made them immuno-compromised.

    It’s simply not true that we are at the mercy of infectious diseases. Our attitude, such as our confidence in our ability to ward off diseases, has a definite effct on our immune system, as has our nutritional status.

    Many people also lack exposure to sunshine, which means that they are vitamin D deficient. Vitamin A is essential for treating children with measles, as the orgnism burns any Vitamin A stores very quickly in order to process measles. Once the vitamin A reserves are used up, their eyes start to hurt and become light-sensitive.

    It would make far better sense to supply African children with vitamin A than to jab them with the MMR, which in children suffering from malnutrition will only cause harm, and no good.

  • Erwin Alber

    “Maybe your fancy diatribes and delusional beliefs and magical thinking work with the other reality impaired anti-vaxers you hang out with, you need to come up with something more to hold your own here.”

    Funny how people tend to project their own shortcomings onto others! In my books, you are guilty of delusional beliefs and magical thinking yourself! Try this one:

    “Mix together some mercury, some aluminum, some formaldehyde, some MSG, some little bits of monkey kidney, chick embryos and cells from an aborted foetus, then add some viral and bacterial particles or the toxin produced by bacteria, then inject this cocktail into a baby and hey, presto! – the baby is – as if by magic – protected against infectious diseases!!!!”

    Give me a break! I would rather consult a witchdoctor from the deepest jungles in Africa than to inject a child of mine with this filth. And you call it “SCIENCE”?

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    …I cannot believe that you stated, obliquely, that children dying of vaccine deaths in Africa are *in need of sunshine*. I’m getting used to the whackjobs saying it’s ok to kill those with weak immune systems, really I am, I just hope for some poetic justice for y’all, but that goes to a new level of cauterizing stupidity.

    So tell me, what shape is the earth?

  • http://blogwithoutatopic.web-log.nl Norah

    “In some European countries parents still know that measles are beneficial and organise “measles parties” where children who haven’t had measles are sent to play with a child who is sick in bed with measles. They want the childhood illnesses do be done and over with by the time the child goes to school, as these same illnesses are more likely to lead to complications if the child is older, say a teenager.”

    Those people are considered dangerous. You make it sound like this is accepted practice, something that most people do. Actually, those are fringe groups of people afraid of vaccines.

  • Chuck

    From US government 2008 sources:

    Measles cases (as of 4/25/2008): 64
    Hospitalizations (as of 4/25/2008): 14
    Deaths: 0
    40% were infected in a healthcare facility and 22% were too young to receive the vaccine.

    Population: 304,000,000

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Thanks to vaccines.

  • Erwin Alber

    “The controls in the studies had plenty of vaccines; just no MMR”

    There you have just one of th many reason why vaccine trials are a farce. It seems that they never test a vaccine by comparing vaccinated with unvaccinated people. I am sure that this is because such a trial would clearly show how useless and damaging vaccines are, as e.g. the WHO’s large field trial of the BCG in India some years ago now clearly demonstrated.

    Also google “generation rescue survey”.

    Also google “clifford honda rutter autism” and have a look at the Japanese graphs, which show a clear correlation between MMR and autism.

  • Chuck

    “Thanks to vaccines.”

    Not for 40% of current cases.

  • Erwin Alber

    “Those people are considered dangerous. You make it sound like this is accepted practice, something that most people do. Actually, those are fringe groups of people afraid of vaccines.”

    You are right. In Germany also, parents have been scared into vaccinating. They don’t realise that the vaccine is a greater health risk than the diseases MMR supposedly (but actually doesn’t) protect against.

    In the first half of the 20th century, the practice of holding measles parties was however still widepread, partly because there was no vaccine against measles in those days. It therefore made sense to get all the children in the neighbourhood to catch the measles at the same time and get it done and over with. Strangely, some children would catch the measles, while others wouldn’t, despite being in close cntact with a measles patient.

    I would do my best to send my children to a measles party if I had children again. Only, I would want to be sure it was a wild strain rather than a vaccine strain of the measles virus. I wouldn’t let them near vaccines of any kind.

    That measles is still regarded as an integral part of early childhood and the vaccine looked upon with suspicion in parts of Europe is demonstrated by the fact that there is a group of over 500 medical doctors in Switzerland who have opposed the government’s MMR vaccination programme from when it was still in its planning stages right into present time. The group calls itself “Aerztliche Arbeitsgruppe fuer differenzierte Impfungen.”

  • Erwin Alber

    To Emily, regarding her comment “Thanks to vaccines.”

    Vaccines had nothing to do with it. You should find out how many children are damaged by MMR. Google “The Dawnbarns Report” on the internet, to find out how many children were maimed and killed in the MMR vaccination campaign “Operation Sageguard” a few years ago.

  • Erwin Alber

    Emily, vaccines had nothing to do with it! You should find out how many children are maimed and killed by the MMR vaccine, e.g. by googling the “Dawbarns Report”, which lists the number of British children who were seriously injured or who were killed in the MMR campaign (ironically named “Operation Safeguard”) a few years ago.

  • Erwin Alber

    “I cannot believe that you stated, obliquely, that children dying of vaccine deaths in Africa are *in need of sunshine*. I’m getting used to the whackjobs saying it’s ok to kill those with weak immune systems”

    Kassiane, African children are hardly lacking sunshine, but many people in developed nations are. Also, its vaccines which kill children with weakened immune systems, in Third World countries especially. I suggest you google the “Dr A Kalokerinos interview” and “Uganda polio vaccine deaths” for some insightful information.

  • Mary

    Erwin, you rock!

    Kassiane, really, come back to the conversation when you get some age on you, or at least have some children of your own.

  • Erwin Alber

    “I wish we could have stopped Jenner and Salk from their idiocy”

    I agree, the world would be a different and predictably a much better place. Vaccination has changed humanity and its expression for the worse. It certainly has given Voltaire’s insight he had, many years ago, a whole new meaning: “The world is a mental asylum run by its worst inmates.”

  • http://www.liquidzeoliteplus.com Flax hulls

    Another “urban myth” according to the CDC is that water fluoridation is harmful and that fluoride is nothing more than rat poison, a toxic waste product in need of a market. However, there is no science that suggests ingesting fluoride is good for ones health. On the contrary, over 100 yrs of studies suggest ingesting fluoride kills enzymes needed for proper brain function, digestion, immune health, etc. Yet the CDC continues to support and defend the advent of this toxic waste in need of a market into our tap water. And oh yeah, fluoride is used as rat poison. So much for the CDC and urban myths.

  • http://crimsonthought.blogspot.com Cliff

    We’d need to see that the specific measurements of fluoridation was more than or equal to the levels considered toxic for you to have a case. Until you present that, you’re making a sweeping generalization in a way in which one can’t make a sweeping generalization. Otherwise, the logic then follows that the CDC is supporting even more toxic substances by saying we can breathe clean air safely when oxygen can be toxic and has been scientifically be proven to do so (but, again, at very different levels).

    Cliff

  • Regan

    “I agree, the world would be a different and predictably a much better place.”

    I think it’s pretty reasonable to consider this an Unknown Fact.

  • http://www.liquidzeoliteplus.com Flax hulls

    Cliff,

    They put 1ppm of hydrofluoric acid (not fluoride, fluoride is a gas) into water. HA even at 1ppm is highly detrimental to health. It’s not toxic at that level, but it nonetheless causes damage to enzymes which are vital to good health. And the CDC knows this and still supports this deadly practice? Why? The CDC cannot cite 1 study that says it’s healthy ingest hydrofluoric acid, a toxic waste byproduct of making nuclear fuel, cement, or aluminum. Please go to http://www.fluoridealert.org/ for plenty of science on this subject.

    Why does the CDC endorse things like vaccines and fluoride? Because the CDC works for big business and industry, not for the general public. Period!

  • http://www.liquidzeoliteplus.com Mike

    Cliff,

    Here is a study that suggests even 1 ppm is harmful:

    ” When rats were treated 6 hr a day for 5 mo. with HF concentrations of 3, 1, 0.5, and 0.1 mg/m-3, it caused functional changes in the CNS, as shown by the condition reflex method and the measurement of chronaxy. There was inhibition of the blood alkaline phosphatase activity and pathomorphological changes in the CNS, bone and tooth tissues and internal organs. The extent of the changes depended on the concentration of HF. The maximum allowable concentration of HF for the air at working places presently accepted, 0.5 mg/m-3, is too high.”
    SOURCE: Vishnevskii VL, El Nichnykh LN. (1969). (A toxicological and morphological characterization of the action of different concentrations of inhaled hydrogen fluoride on the body.). Tr Tsentr Nauchno-Issled Proektn-Konstr In. 2: 143-147.

    Also see: http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/brain/index.html#animal2

  • Regan

    “fluoride is a gas”
    Fluorine is a gas.
    Fluoride describes F- ion.

  • http://www.liquidzeoliteplus.com Mike

    Naturally occurring fluoride is not what they put in our drinking water by the way. The ADA will tell you that fluoride is naturally occurring and ubiquitous, but they will not tell you that’s not what is put in our drinking water (rat poison hydrofluoric acid) Wonder why they don’t tell us that?

  • Regan

    They probably don’t tell us that because the actual compound and concentration by volume and weight is relevant.

    HF is an acid that I have worked with personally and I had quite a moment trying to figure out how that would be packaged as a rodenticide since it is a liquid or as hydrogen fluoride converts to that acid on contact with moisture. I believe the more common use is in such as Rust-off, manufacture of Teflon, etc.

    If you look at rodenticides I think you might get a better idea of the compounds (acetate forms) at high weight/weight concentrations actually used and that those are not those used in municipal water fluoridation. I can’t speak for the water industry in general, but my understanding is that the compounds used are disodium hexafluorosilicate F6Na2Si or Hexafluorosilicic acid
    H2SiF6.
    Neither are hydrofluoric acid.

    Nature in general is indifferent to the source of the ion. F- is identical whether from a mineral or a derived compound. Similar analogies are your calcium supplements (oystershell v. calcium carbonate), vitamin C (whether from rosehips or compounded as pure ascorbic acid), etc.
    FWIW, I don’t have a dog in this fight. Our state doesn’t fluoridate and I have no vested interest in the fluoride or water industry.

    If you are a rock hound, some of those fluoride minerals are quite beautiful.

  • Erwin Alber

    Yes, the alphabet soup type organisations like the EPA, CDC, NIH, FDA, NCI, CIA, UN, WHO, UNESCO etc all part of the same crime syndicate involved in nefarious activities across the globe. Their benevolent image is just a facade to disguise their real purpose.

    Check out the youtube video “The biggest secret part 7: AIDS, vaccines and fluoride”.

    Interestingly, the EPA’s own scientists have found that fluoride is ineffective and dangerous and that it is a carcinogen (it e.g. causes a rare form of bone cancer in young males), that it causes osteoporosis and a drop in IQ in children. These EPA scientists have for years protested their management’s official position (designed for public consumption) that fluoride is safe and effective.

    Fluoridation is like vaccinations a way to promote ill-health among the population. Fluoridation was used by the Nazis under Hitler and by the Communists under Stalin, to keep prisoners docile. This is also why fluoride is found in virtually all the major tranquillisers. Vaccines and fluoride are both used for mind control purposes, hence the aluminium, mercury and formaldehyde in vaccines. Even just the (false) claim that vaccines prevent diseases or that fluoride prevent tooth decay are forms of mind control. In fact, as the saying goes, fluoride promotes truth decay.

  • Erwin Alber

    Talking about environmental hazards, I have just read that the FEMA stipulates a safety limit of 16 parts of formaldehyde maximum, per billion parts of air. Does anyone know how much formaldehyde is injected via a vaccination?

  • Regan

    “Yes, the alphabet soup type organisations like the EPA, CDC, NIH, FDA, NCI, CIA, UN, WHO, UNESCO etc all part of the same crime syndicate involved in nefarious activities across the globe. Their benevolent image is just a facade to disguise their real purpose…”
    ————————–
    Good grief. We have now left the planet.

  • http://crimsonthought.blogspot.com Cliff

    “Yes, the alphabet soup type organisations like the EPA, CDC, NIH, FDA, NCI, CIA, UN, WHO, UNESCO etc all part of the same crime syndicate involved in nefarious activities across the globe. Their benevolent image is just a facade to disguise their real purpose…”

    Well, there we go. A full conspiracy theory based on organizations who may not even like each other (like the CIA and the U.N.). That’s a common enough classic, I suppose.

    But this is the real kicker.

    “Vaccines and fluoride are both used for mind control purposes, hence the aluminium, mercury and formaldehyde in vaccines. Even just the (false) claim that vaccines prevent diseases or that fluoride prevent tooth decay are forms of mind control. In fact, as the saying goes, fluoride promotes truth decay.”

    Umm… don’t the prior two claims quite frankly make the third impossible? On the other hand, I’ve never heard the saying (up til now) that “fluoride promotes truth decay”. But I’m just being mind controlled by my vaccinations, aren’t I? Insular logic, no?

    Cliff

  • http://blogwithoutatopic.web-log.nl Norah

    Well, ingesting fluoride in large doses (a LOT) is bad for your bones, and I hear it harms your teeth as well. However, if you brush your teeth with toothpaste containing a very small dose of it… Aside from doses of fluoride in water being very low, there’s no flouride in our water (in this country), since 1973, and before that only a few regions did some trials with it.

    Of course, my healthy teeth mean I must be a mindless drone, not to mention that I never had measles or polio, so don’t listen to me. Or maybe our government is lying to us, and there has been fluoride in our water for years, and they pump our vaccines full of mercury and formaldehyde because they like the extra costs of keeping the population ill.

    This comment thread is like watching an episode of Lost.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    “Yes, the alphabet soup type organisations like the EPA, CDC, NIH, FDA, NCI, CIA, UN, WHO, UNESCO etc all part of the same crime syndicate involved in nefarious activities across the globe. Their benevolent image is just a facade to disguise their real purpose.

    Check out the youtube video “The biggest secret part 7: AIDS, vaccines and fluoride”. ”

    This thread has officially jumped the shark.

  • Erwin Alber

    “Well, ingesting fluoride in large doses (a LOT) is bad for your bones, and I hear it harms your teeth as well. However, if you brush your teeth with toothpaste containing a very small dose of it… ”

    You don’t seem to realise that fluoride is highly carcinogenic, that is is absorbed through the mucous membranes of your mouth everytime you brush your teeth and that there is enough fluoride in an average tube of toothpaste to kill two small children if they were to ingest its contents!

    “In point of fact, fluoride causes more human cancer deaths, and causes it faster, than any other chemical.”–Dean Burke, Former Chief Chemist Emeritus, US National Cancer Institute, US Congressional Records of 21 July 1976

    Colgate fluoride toothpaste carries this warning: “Not for children under the age of 7″ and the Colgate website one which says: “If more toothpaste than needed for brushing is swallowed, contact a poison centre immediately.”

    Fluoride is also used as a rat- and cockroach poison and is the active ingredient in the nerve gas Sarin, which was used in the Tokyo subway attacks which killed a number of people, as well as in 1080 poison used to kill millions of opossums in New Zealand every year.

    The same poison is put in public water supplies at tax-payer expense in a number of countries. Water fluoridation is in fact a profitable way of solving the problem of toxic industrial waste disposal posed by fluoride. Water fluoridation allows it to be dispersed via the public’s kidneys.

    Fluoridated toothpaste is a public relations exercise designed to get people to associate fluoride with dental care.

    I strongly recommend that that people repeat the following words before going to sleep every night, to overcome this programming:

    “Fluoride is rat poison! Floride is rat poison!”

    Hopefully the words will spring to mind again as you squeeze the ratpoison-laced toothpaste onto your toothbrush in the morning, and deter you from sticking it in your mouth!

  • Erwin Alber

    “This thread has officially jumped the shark”

    Could you explain this turn of phrase to this non-native English spreaker, Emily? I have heard about the cow jumping over the moon, but never about the thread jumping the shark!

  • Erwin Alber

    “maybe our government is lying to us”

    Indeed.

    How can you tell when a politician is lying?

    Whenever his or her lips move!

    It follows that whenever the government tells us that something is good for us, it must be bad for us, and that when it tells us that something is bad for us, it must be good for us. Keep this in mind, Norah, and you will never go wrong.

    “They pump our vaccines full of mercury and formaldehyde because they like the extra costs of keeping the population ill”.

    That should say “…..because they like to keep the population ill.”

    Have you ever asked yourself why the government puts one of the most toxic and carcinogenic chemicals in our drinking water, and
    why it promotes the injection of vaccines which contain highly neurotoxic substances like mercury and aluminum?

  • http://crimsonthought.blogspot.com Cliff

    I’m going to start to call this “chemical essentialist syndrome”, because the argument is basically “if it involves something that, in any context, might be dangerous, it is always dangerous”.

    Cliff

  • Regan

    This might be of interest, not because of the fluoride “issue” specifically, but because of the summing up of uses of logical fallacies and selective (and sometimes blatant) misrepresentation to rather effectively put forth a persuasive message. Being recent, there is discussion of the contribution of the internet.

    From PubMed
    Armfield, J.M. (2007). When public action undermines public health: a critical examination of antifluoridationist literature. Australia and New Zealand Health Policy, 4:25.
    http://tinyurl.com/5s6gnm

  • Regan

    Interestingly enough many of the examples have shown up both on this thread and the other on the MMR.

  • http://crimsonthought.blogspot.com Cliff

    “Interestingly enough many of the examples have shown up both on this thread and the other on the MMR.”

    Colorfully, and in spades (especially the bamboozling effect).

    Fake scientific/logical arguments in terms of fluoride. A very good read indeed.

    Oh, oh, oh! Soliciting an opinion, if I may…

    Do you think what we have been seeing falls under “unsubstantiated opinion” or “outright fraud”? Maybe both? Hmm…

    Cliff

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    I had never heard the expression “fluoride promotes truth decay”, so I googled it and there were zero hits.

    I guess that proves Google is part of the vast conspiracy too, filtering out crucial elements of the fluoride induced mind control scheme to keep everyone ignorant.

  • Chuck

    Google must be part of the vast conspiracy or your internet connection is lacking, good search came back with 2367 hits.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    This is what I found:

    “fluoride promotes tooth decay” 2 hits
    fluoride promotes tooth decay 162,000 hits
    fluoride promotes truth decay 42,000 hits
    “fluoride promotes truth decay” 0 hits

  • Erwin Alber

    Thanks to Regan for the link to this PubMed paper:

    Armfield, J.M. (2007). When public action undermines public health: a critical examination of antifluoridationist literature. Australia and New Zealand Health Policy, 4:25.
    http://tinyurl.com/5s6gnm

    If it wasn’t for the fact that I am quite used to the lies told in connection with vaccination and fluoridation, I would probably have vomited all over my keyboard!

    The following words are enough to trigger the gagging reflex:

    “Fluoridation opponents employ multiple techniques to try and undermine the
    scientifically established effectiveness of water fluoridation.”

    Scientifically established??? When??? By whom???

    The truth is that the EPA scientists in the USA who have carried out the toxicology studies concerning fluoride have protested their management’s politically and commercially motivated stance that “fluoride is safe and effective” (sound familiar?) for years now.
    They even threatened to take their management to court for making claims designed to mislead the public.

    Even quite a number of Nobel Prize winners are outspoken opponents of water fluoridation.

    It is somehow rather fitting that the PubMed paper should concern New Zealand, because after the New Zealand government had introduced water fluoridation by stealth and deceit after world war 2, the Auckland so-called Department of Health sent its Principal Dental Officer Dr John Colquhoun on a world tour to document the supposed benefits of fluoridation.

    Summoned before his superiors on his return to deliver his findings, John truthfully told them that he had been unable to find any evidence of benefit, but only evidence of harm. There was a stony silence in the room. John was given the cold shoulder after that and he opted for early retirement rather than compromise his scientific integrity. He became the editor of the International Fluoride Journal and remained an outspoken opponent of fluoridation until his death a few years ago.

    Using New Zealand’s official dental decay statistics, John was able to prove that there was little if any difference in tooth decay rates between fluoridated and unfluoridated New Zealand cities, and that the children in unfluoridated Christchurch actually had better teeth than the children in other, fluoridated cities, such as Dunedin.

    Some years ago, Tauranga citizens rejected water fluoridation via a referendum. Tauranga dentists and dental nurses had apparently been under instructions to fill even minute cavities in children’s teeth, to convey the impression that decay rates were soaring without fluoride in the water – yet another example of fluoride causing truth decay!

    Another such example can be found in fluoride’s connection to the Manhattan Atomic Bomb Project, where fluoride became such a serious health threat to workers that those in charge manufactured evidence to portray fluoride as harmless.

    Tooth decay and infectious diseases seem minor health threats in comparison to the maniacs, the criminals and the psychopaths in government positions and in charge of “public health”. Stringing them up from lampposts is in my opinion far too good for them.

  • Erwin Alber

    To: daedalus2u

    Re:

    “fluoride promotes tooth decay” 2 hits
    fluoride promotes tooth decay 162,000 hits
    fluoride promotes truth decay 42,000 hits
    “fluoride promotes truth decay” 0 hits

    Your information doesn’t make sense. I suspect that the fluoride in your water or toothpaste may have caused some brain decay over the years.

    Did you know that only half of the fluoride ingested over a life time is eliminated from the body, and that the other half is stored in the bones and other parts of the body of the person ingesting it?

  • Regan

    Cliff,
    In reply to your question,
    I don’t know, what do you think?

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    The discussion about fluoride overlooks a reality in the life of some autistic children—-the difficulty in teaching them to brush their teeth and otherwise take care of dental hygiene. Also, a lot of autistic children—-my son for sure included—-have great trouble going to the dentist. Not attending to necessary dental care can severely reduce quality of life issues.

  • Regan

    “Even quite a number of Nobel Prize winners are outspoken opponents of water fluoridation.”

    Yes. N=1.

    (Erwin, one might be more disposed to look at this from a less skeptical point of view if you didn’t beat people quite so hard over the head with yours.)

  • Erwin Alber

    “Not attending to necessary dental care can severely reduce quality of life issues”

    Ironically, attending to dental care can severely reduce quality of life as well! There are however good news as well:

    “The FDA has been successfully sued by Consumers for Dental Choice, forcing them to reclassify mercury amalgam fillings by June, 2009. This ends the decades-long conspiracy between the ADA and FDA to protect the mercury fillings racket which has enabled dentists to implant neurotoxic chemicals into the mouths of children, teens and pregnant women.We are about to win the war against mercury in dental care!

    Natural News features an interview with Charles Brown from Consumers for Dental Choice. It exposes the fraud and criminality of top FDA decision makers who have conspired with the American Dental Association to poison our children and protect mercury filling profits. You have no idea just how evil modern dentistry has become, and how willing these people are to harm you and your children so that they can earn obscene profits!”

    Natural News

    Similarly, most people have no idea just how evil modern medicine has become, and how willing these people are to harm us and our children with useless vaccines, so that they can earn obscene profits.

    One can only hope that the FDA and all the other alphabet soup organisations’ complicity in the vaccination racket and the mercury scandal will be similarly exposed in the not too distant future.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    I recall that another Nobel winner seriously espoused the concept of panspermia. Hmmm….I think that was Francis Crick, yes?

    Now THAT’s a derailment.

  • Erwin Alber

    In response to Regan’s comment in reply to mine:

    “Even quite a number of Nobel Prize winners are outspoken opponents of water fluoridation.”

    Yes. N=1.

    Google “14 Nobel Prize Winners who object to fluoridation”, then get back to me with your apology.

    1. Dr Arvid Carlsson, Nobel Prize in Medicine, Oct 2000 for his work on the brain. He also played a very prominent role in banning fluoridation in Sweden

    2. Dr Giulio Natta, Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1963; Chemical Eng., Director, Industrial Chemistry Research Center, Polytechnic Institute of Milan, Italy.

    3. Dr Joshua Lederberg, Nobel Prize in Medicine, 1958 WHO’s Avisory Health Research Council, Received U.S. National Medal of Science, 1989. Former Chairman of the Cancer Panel of the National Academy of Science.

    4. Sir Cyril Norman Hinshelwood, O.M., M.A., D.S., F.R.S., Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1956, University of Oxford

    5. Nikolai Semenov, Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1956, D. Sc., Director, Institute of Chemical Physics, Moscow,; professor, Leningrad Polytechnic Institute and of Moscow State University; member USSR Academy of Science, Chemical Society of England, and Royal Society of England

    6. Hugo Theorell, M.D., Nobel Prize in Medicine, 1955, Director, Bio-Chemistry Department, Nobel Medical Institute, President, Swedish Medical Association. Stated hazards of fluoridation in a report to Swedish Medical Board.

    7. W. Hess, Dr. Phil. Nobel Prize Winner in Medicine, 1949, Professor of physiology and former Director of Physiological Institute, University of Zurich, Switzerland.

    8. Sir Robert Robinson, O.M., D. Sc., F.R.I.C., F.R.S., M.I.C.E., Nobel Prize Winner in Chemistry, 1947, Director, Shell Chemical Company, Profesor of Chemistry, Oxford University

    9. James B. Sumner, Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1946, former Director of Enzyme Chemistry, Dpt. of Biochemistry and Nutrition, Cornell University

    10. Prof Arturi Virtanen, Nobel Prize in Chemistry 1945, Director, Biochemical Institute, Helsinki; president, Finnish State Academy of Sciences and Art.

    11. Adolf F. J. Butenandt, D. Phil, Nobel Prize Chemistry, 1939, Dir. Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry; professor of phisiological chemistry, Munich University

    12. Corneille Jean Francis Heymans, M.D., Nobel Prize Winner Medicine 1938. Professor of Pharmacology, pharmacodynamics and toxicology and Director Heymans Institute of Pharmacology and Therapeutics

    13. William P Murphy, M.D., D.Sc., Nobel Prize in Medicine, 1934. Lecturer in Medicine, 1934. Lecturer on Medicine, emeritus, Harvard Medical School; consultant in hematology, Peter Bent Brigham Hospital, Boston

    14. Hans K.A.S. von Euler-Chelpin, Nobel Prize winner Chemistry, 1929, Stockholm University, President, Chemical Sociey, Dir. Inst. for Research in Organic Chemistry.

    I’m sorry if I “beat people around the head with my views”! It’s just that from where I am looking at things, they are obviously asleep and need to be woken up!

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Zero is also a number, as in a number of Nobel Prize winners believe XYZ.

  • Mary

    Well, I stopped believing in any Nobel Prizes as meaning anything when Al Gore won over a woman who single handedly saved 2,500 children from the Germans during the Holocaust and even after being tortured she lived and returned as many children as she could to their parents.

    Yeah, Al Gore is sure a better winner than her — NOT…. what a freaking joke.

  • Regan

    “The discussion about fluoride overlooks a reality in the life of some autistic children—-the difficulty in teaching them to brush their teeth and otherwise take care of dental hygiene. Also, a lot of autistic children—-my son for sure included—-have great trouble going to the dentist. Not attending to necessary dental care can severely reduce quality of life issues.”
    ——————————
    Kristina,
    Seeing the amount of passion expended on this thread, it makes you wonder or wish that at least an equal amount of time was devoted to those questions of how to teach those skills and increasing access to dental care for those with specialized needs or lack of access due to inability to pay (In our area there is much easier access to low/free pay medical than dental).

    Anyway, we’ve all (me too) gone pretty far afield of your original post. Sorry.

  • http://storkdok-nos.blogspot.com/ Storkdok

    Just how many names does Mike post under? Mike, Liquid Zeolite, probiotics, now Erwin Alber?

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  • Erwin Alber

    In response to Regan’s comment in reply to mine:

    “Even quite a number of Nobel Prize winners are outspoken opponents of water fluoridation.”

    Yes. N=1.

    Google “14 Nobel Prize Winners who object to fluoridation”.

    1. Dr Arvid Carlsson, Nobel Prize in Medicine, Oct 2000 for his work on the brain. He also played a very prominent role in banning fluoridation in Sweden

    2. Dr Giulio Natta, Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1963; Chemical Eng., Director, Industrial Chemistry Research Center, Polytechnic Institute of Milan, Italy.

    3. Dr Joshua Lederberg, Nobel Prize in Medicine, 1958 WHO’s Avisory Health Research Council, Received U.S. National Medal of Science, 1989. Former Chairman of the Cancer Panel of the National Academy of Science.

    4. Sir Cyril Norman Hinshelwood, O.M., M.A., D.S., F.R.S., Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1956, University of Oxford

    5. Nikolai Semenov, Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1956, D. Sc., Director, Institute of Chemical Physics, Moscow,; professor, Leningrad Polytechnic Institute and of Moscow State University; member USSR Academy of Science, Chemical Society of England, and Royal Society of England

    6. Hugo Theorell, M.D., Nobel Prize in Medicine, 1955, Director, Bio-Chemistry Department, Nobel Medical Institute, President, Swedish Medical Association. Stated hazards of fluoridation in a report to Swedish Medical Board.

    7. W. Hess, Dr. Phil. Nobel Prize Winner in Medicine, 1949, Professor of physiology and former Director of Physiological Institute, University of Zurich, Switzerland.

    8. Sir Robert Robinson, O.M., D. Sc., F.R.I.C., F.R.S., M.I.C.E., Nobel Prize Winner in Chemistry, 1947, Director, Shell Chemical Company, Profesor of Chemistry, Oxford University

    9. James B. Sumner, Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1946, former Director of Enzyme Chemistry, Dpt. of Biochemistry and Nutrition, Cornell University

    10. Prof Arturi Virtanen, Nobel Prize in Chemistry 1945, Director, Biochemical Institute, Helsinki; president, Finnish State Academy of Sciences and Art.

    11. Adolf F. J. Butenandt, D. Phil, Nobel Prize Chemistry, 1939, Dir. Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry; professor of phisiological chemistry, Munich University

    12. Corneille Jean Francis Heymans, M.D., Nobel Prize Winner Medicine 1938. Professor of Pharmacology, pharmacodynamics and toxicology and Director Heymans Institute of Pharmacology and Therapeutics

    13. William P Murphy, M.D., D.Sc., Nobel Prize in Medicine, 1934. Lecturer in Medicine, 1934. Lecturer on Medicine, emeritus, Harvard Medical School; consultant in hematology, Peter Bent Brigham Hospital, Boston

    14. Hans K.A.S. von Euler-Chelpin, Nobel Prize winner Chemistry, 1929, Stockholm University, President, Chemical Society, Dir. Inst. for Research in Organic Chemistry.

  • Erwin Alber

    Regan, also check out:

    http;//www.nofluoride.com/presentations/presentation.htm

    This link features, among other information:

    Scientist’s Position Papers

    -14 Nobel Prize winners opposing fluoridation

    -EPA professionals discuss why they oppose fluoridation.

    -Dr. John Colquhoun, former Principal Dental Officer for Auckland New Zealand and former advocate of fluoridation, documents why he changed his mind.

    -Dr. Hardy Limeback, Head of the University of Toronto’s School of Preventive Dentistry and former fluoridation advocate, documents his reasoning for now opposing fluoridation.

    Dr Limeback has publicly apologised for unknowingly misleading the public about fluoridation for many years.

    -Dr. Mullinix – discusses research she’s done demonstrating the negative health impact of fluoridation

    -List of Top Medical Professionals and Scientists Warning of Fluoridation Dangers

    -List of Doctors and Dentists objecting to water fluoridation

    From Medical Journals

    -AMA Letter – AMA states “not prepared to state fluoride is safe”

    -Journal American Medical Assoc. – “Hip Fractures increased in areas with fluoridated water”

    -Journal American Dental Assoc (JADA) – “optimal intake has yet to be determined”

    -Amer. Journal of Epidemiology – “fluoride damages bones at levels added to public drinking water”

    -Australian & New Zealand Journal of Public Health – “five major epidemiological studies show a high rate of hip fractures in fluoridated regions.

    -Dartmouth College -”fluoridation is associated with an increase of lead levels in children” – 280,000 children in the study.

    -Canadian Dental Association warning that 35-60% of people in fluoridated communities will get dental fluorosis (mottling of the teeth), a sign of chronic fluoride poisoning. Half of ingested fluride accumulates in bones and in other parts of the body.

    -Populations who are sensitive to the effects of fluoride

    -Annals of Allergy – study showing allergies to fluoride.

    -Delta Dental, a large California insurance company promotes and funds fluoridation but refuses to pay for dental work due to fluoridation damage.

  • Erwin Alber

    Here is a little fluoridation history:

    Decades ago, the aluminum industry was sued for millions for the damage the fluoride emitted from smokestacks inflicted on crops, forests, animals and people.

    To solve this problem, some bright but scrupulous people hit on the idea of promoting fluoride added to public drinking water supplies as a preventative for tooth decay, thus enabling them to get rid of this highly toxic and highly carcinogenic industrial waste product at a profit!

    The Mellon family owning the aluminum industry spent huge amounts of money to promote their criminal scheme/scam to governments and dentists. Marketing fluoride toothpaste is an integral part of this brain-washing exercise, to promote the (completely erroneous) idea that fluoride is good for teeth.

    Last year, Colgate donated 1000 tubes of fluoride toothpaste to all 6 and 7-year-old school children at the school in Bangkok where I teach English. Theit motto is obviously: “Get them early!”

    The fluoride is obtained by hosing down the accumulated deposits from factory chimneys of the aluminum and fertiliser industry where it collects on the scrubbers.

    Being contaminated with lead, cadmium, arsenic and even radioactive elements, this industrial grade fluoride (hydrofluorosilicic acid) is unfit for human consumption, yet added to our drinking water! If a pharmacist were to stock and sell it, he would be fined and lose his license!

    Fluoridation is mass medication and mass poisoning of the public.

    As things are, corrupt and criminal governments, who get election campaign contributions and other backhanders from big business, allow and even promote crimes against the public good such as fluoriation and vaccination, under the pretext of promoting public health.

    As Alan Watt – cuttingthroughthematrix – points out: “The psychopaths at the top impose a psychopathic culture on the rest of us”. I maintain that hanging them from lampposts is too good for them.

  • Erwin Alber

    http;//www.nofluoride.com/presentations/presentation.htm

    This link features a fascinating account by Dr John Colquhoun about why he changed his mind about fluoridation. It includes a graph which clearly shows that neither fluoridated toothpaste nor water fluoridation made any difference to declining tooth decay rates.

    The similarity between this graph and the many graphs based on offifcial statistics showing that vaccines had no influence whatsoever on declining infectious disease mortality rates is striking.

  • Erwin Alber

    Sorry, this should of course have said:

    “…some bright but UNscrupulous people hit on the idea of promoting fluoride added to public drinking water supplies as a preventative for tooth decay…”

  • Erwin Alber

    google ‘nteu280.org’ to access the EPA’s scientists’ website.

    The EPA scientists start their statement on fluoride with the following:

    Silicofluorides: unrefined industrial waste

    91% of Americans ingesting artificially fluoridated water are consuming silicofluorides1. This is a class of fluoridation chemicals that includes hydrofluosilicic acid and its salt form, sodium fluorosilicate. These chemicals are collected from the pollution scrubbers of the phosphate fertilizer industry. The scrubber liquors contain contaminants such as arsenic, lead, cadmium, mercury, and radioactive particles2, are legally regulated as toxic waste, and are prohibited from direct dispersal into the environment. Upon being sold (unrefined) to municipalities as fluoridating agents, these same substances are then considered a “product”, allowing them to be dispensed through fluoridated municipal water systems to the very same ecosystems to which they could not be released directly. Sodium fluoride, used in the remaining municipalities, is also an industrial waste product that contains hazardous contaminants.

    Scarcity of environmental impact studies

    This is of deep concern to us. Studies that do exist indicate damage to salmon and to plant ecosystems.3a It is significant that Canada’s water quality guideline to protect freshwater life is 0.12 ppm (parts per million). 3b

    99.97% of fluoridated water is released directly into the environment at around 1ppm

    This water is NOT used for drinking or cooking.4

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  • Semantha

    I never believed the myth I looked at it and ar worst believed that it aggravated an already existing condition. I wish more people would just look at the facts and use so not so common anymore sense!! great job!

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  • Christopher Cook

    Dear Sir,

    Vaccines contain ethyl mercury, which is non-toxic and bio-degradeable. I pointed this out to the herbalist Wendy Wilson, but needless to say I received no reply!