• Mon, May 26 2008

An Invasion of MMR/Vaccine Misinformation

To read an article about the MMR vaccine and autism in today’s Telegraph, you’d think there was plenty of reason for the “debate” to be “reignited” thanks to Senator John McCain talking about an “autism epidemic”; recent statements about US health officials being too quick to dismiss arguments about vaccine as a cause of autism by Dr. Bernardine Healy; the case of Hannah Poling, in which the government conceded that vaccines “aggravated” an underlying mitochondrial disorder in Hannah and led to symptoms of autism; and a recent poster presentation at IMFAR about a study in which 13 vaccinated monkeys showed “increased aggression, impaired cognitive skills and developmental delay” after receiving vaccines.

Here’s what the Telegraph article doesn’t note:

Sen. McCain was widely criticized by scientists about his comment that the increase in autism is due to vaccines.

There is a lot of uncertainty and even controversy over how common mitochondrial disorders are in autistic children. In the case of Hannah Poling, it’s necessary to note that the government did NOT concede that vaccines cause autism.

The poster presentation is by Laura Hewitson, who (along with her husband, Dan Hollenbeck) is a petitioner in a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. (And bloggers Larry Arnold and Mike Stanton comment on the notion of “conflict of interest.)

Though when journalist David Kirby speaks on June 4th in the UK, these things may not be mentioned: This American invasion of further evidence for the MMR/vaccine-autism debate is a lot less bullet-proof than the Telegraph suggests.

Mike Stanton of Action for Autism provides some more information and background behind Kirby’s visit to the UK.

What We're Reading:
Share This Post:
  • http://autismspectrumdisorders.bellaonline.com Bonnie Sayers

    I have been living with children on the autism spectrum for ten years and never heard of mitochondrial disorder until that case.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    It’s going to take an outbreak and deaths from one of the vaccinated diseases before people stop this nonsense. Every false word written or spoken in support of a “link” is one more step toward disaster.

  • Gaye

    Emily, even that will not wake people nor the pharmaceutical companies up, Hitler said, “what luck for leaders that people don’t think”. If we can have world wide Muslim violence where Muslims themselves do not outrage against the world wide teaching of death to the infidels done by their clerics/Imams teachers and leaders, then how can we expect a pharmaceutical company which makes trillions out of our misery to admit that it is wrong. However if there was one death from a natural product it would be whipped of the shelves in a second.
    My husband has been a teacher for 42 years and principal of much of that, and being a Principal he would get to hear of families who have problems in this area but his first autistic child was 23 years ago. They say that there has always been the odd child in the world who has autism and that I do believe, but because of the poisons in immunisation does immunisation drastically raise the odds, which leads me to think that autism might be a condition of poisons picked up somehow during or before conception and development

  • Gaye

    If Sen. McCain has come out and said immunization can perhaps cause autism, I doubt he will become president, the pharmecutical companies will see to that using their trillions to destroy him..
    Look up the The Pharmaceutical Drug Racket – Part One.

    Plus it is reported that we now have a vast array of pharmaceuticals – including antibiotics, anti-convulsants, mood stabilizers and sex hormones – have been found in the drinking water supplies of at least 41 million Americans, an Associated Press investigation shows.
    The presence of so many prescription drugs – and over-the-counter medicines like acetaminophen and ibuprofen – in so much of our drinking water is heightening worries among scientists of long-term consequences to human health.

    In the course of a five-month inquiry, the AP discovered that drugs have been detected in the drinking water supplies of 24 major metropolitan areas – from Southern California to Northern New Jersey, from Detroit to Louisville, Ky.
    And bottled water isn’t any better than tap water.”

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Gaye, you have misunderstood me.

    “It’s going to take an outbreak and deaths from one of the vaccinated diseases before people stop this nonsense. Every false word written or spoken in support of a “link” is one more step toward disaster.”
    It’s going to take an outbreak of one of the diseases against which we vaccinate before people will finally realize the consequences of this behavior of insisting on a link between vaccines and autism when there is no scientific evidence whatsoever to support it. This insistence on a link in the face of all evidence to the contrary is going to lead to the deaths of children from these diseases because of a drop in vaccinations and a loss of herd immunity, and every word that is written alleging this false link is a step toward that outcome. It’s short-sighted, ill-informed, irresponsible behavior that nothing short of the scenario I’ve described will apparently stop. As long as people insist on remaining underinformed or willfully ignorant, as long as they block progress by sticking to this nonstarter of a hypothesis, we move inexorably toward that outcome, and we move no closer to understanding the true mechanisms of autism.

    Science, including abundant and ever-growing genetic evidence, does not support the hypothesis that vaccines or mercury et al. are responsible. This vaccines/mercury/MMR crap is a deadly dog-and-pony show with people like Kirby as the self-aggrandizing ringmasters. I’m personally sick of it, but the human capacity for willful ignorance and indefensible, angry posturing is apparently bottomless–thus the show goes on, afflicting theoretically otherwise sensible people like a contagion. Wish there were a vaccine for that.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Unfortunately, Sen Obama has also made a statement about vaccines and autism—-not at all supported by the science.

    http://www.autismvox.com/another-way-to-access-the-candidates-the-vaccine-autism-question/

  • http://autismus.twoday.net Monika

    Have you seen this new weblog? A retired American epidemiologist who points out mistakes in studies that claim to prove an “autism epidemic”. He has already written a series of interesting postings, beginning with “There is no autism epidemic. It’s an artifact:”
    http://epiwonk.com/?p=38

  • Vicky

    Emily – you are wrong on so many counts. Almost all of the diseases for which our children are currently vaccinated were almost completely eliminated before vaccination began and are much more strongly associated with improved sanitation and nutrition. (The evidence is out there in public domain).
    In some cases, incidences of diseases have actually fallen when uptake of vaccination fell (eg whooping cough (Pertussis) vaccination in UK in 1970s).
    There is no real information about vaccine damage because there are no long-term studies looking at the incidence of adverse reactions. All other drugs have to undergo rigorous trials which examine reaction over years. Vaccination is allowed to be exempt from such scrutiny because we are told it is a ‘proven’ medium. Consequently vaccinations are regularly contaminated with animal viruses (because they are grown on cells from monkeys and chickens) and human viruses ( because some are also grown on human cells from aborted foetuses). Adverse reactions are only acknowledged if they are reported within 72 hours of exposure. Who defined this time limit and with what justification? It can only be to eliminate the genuine claims of parents whose children have more chronic effects with slower onset.
    To be questioning of authority is not as you put it ‘short-sighted, ill-informed and irresponsible’. To accept blindly what you are told is however: the ‘reccent’ study which ‘undermined’ the vaccination/autism connection was SERIOUSLY flawed. It imposed unreasonable symptom criteria on the sample group so that the findings were skewed beyond any use (they even admitted this in their findings) but they relied on people to read the headlines and not question the detail. It appears that is exactly what you have done.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Vicky,

    You noted that “Almost all of the diseases for which our children are currently vaccinated were almost completely eliminated before vaccination began and are much more strongly associated with improved sanitation and nutrition.”

    What are some of your sources for this?

  • Gaye

    All through history there have been epidemics come and go, and we will have more. Emily, it is strange that I am reading this over the past couple of days as today I came across a lovely woman who was vaccinated against polio during the epidemic, and her brother got polio from the vaccine and he got it badly.

    I strongly disagree with you, only hrs after my grand daughter was immunized she stopped breathing and went blue in my arms but if she had of been in here bed it would only have been counted as a cot death. she was revived a few times after that until she was counted free after a few months..

    you say that there is no evidence and as in our case and another friend who also had an melanoma on the site of here immunisation and the Dr said that he wouldn’t be reporting it, if they don’t report these things then there will never be any evidence but having said that I am going to in close what many specialists and Drs say..

    Doctor Richard Moskowitz MD said, “I have always felt that the attempt to eradicate entire microbial species from the biosphere must inevitably upset the balance of Nature in fundamental ways that we can barely imagine. Such concerns loom ever larger as new vaccines continue to be developed for no better reason than that we have the technical capacity to make them, thus demonstrating our right and power as a civilization to manipulate the evolutionary process itself.”

    DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION
    “There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good.”
    Dr J Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
    and Drug Administration

    More next post

  • Gaye

    “The greatest threat of childhood disease lies in the dangerous and
    ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunisation.”
    Dr R. Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

    “In our opinion, there is now sufficient evidence of immune malfunction following current vaccination programmes to anticipate growing public demands for research investigation into alternative methods of prevention of infectious disease.”
    Dr’s H. Buttram and J. Hoffman (Vaccinations and Immune Malfunctions)

    “All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the blood
    into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and leukemia…Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukaemia.”
    Professor L.C. Vincent, Founder of Bioelectronics

    “Every vaccine carries certain hazards and can produce inward reactions in some people…in general, there are more vaccine complications than is generally appreciated.”
    Professor George Dick, London University

    “Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection.”
    Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    “In addition to the many obvious cases of mortality from these practises,
    there are also long-term hazards which are almost impossible to estimate
    accurately…the inherent danger of of all vaccine procedures should be a
    deterrent to their unnecessary or unjustifiable use.”
    Sir Graham Wilson (The Hazards of Immunisation)

    “Laying aside the very real possibility that the various vaccines are
    contaminated with animal viruses and may cause serious illness later in life (multiple sclerosis, cancer, leukaemia, etc) we must consider whether the vaccines really work for their intended purpose.”
    Dr W.C. Douglas (Cutting Edge, May 1990)

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    With reference to Smallpox;

    “Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and
    ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine…Believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practise, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end.”
    Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy , (New York Medical Journal July 1899)

    “Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more
    susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated.”
    Dr J.W. Hodge (The Vaccination Superstition)

    “It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus – and it is usually from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim … it is unthinkable that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunisation, if we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can’t do it.”
    Dr William Howard Hay (lecture to Medical Freedom Society, June 25th 1937)

    “Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.”
    Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation

    With reference to Whooping Cough;

    “There is no doubt in my mind that in the UK alone some hundreds, if not thousands of well infants have suffered irreparable brain damage needlessly and that their lives and those of their parents have been wrecked in consequence.”
    Professor Gordon Stewart, University of Glasgow (Here’s Health, March 1980)

    “My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the
    nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the US each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given to children. The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is the most likely villain , but it could also be one or more of the others.”
    Dr R Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

    “The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine…it is responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering irreversible brain damage..”
    Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Author and Vaccine Researcher (Natural Health Convention, Stanwell Tops, NSW, Australia 1987)

    With reference to Polio;

    “Many here voice a silent view that the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine, being made of monkey kidney tissue has been directly responsible for the major increase in leukaemia in this country.”
    Dr F. Klenner, Polio Researcher, USA

    “No batch of vaccine can be proved to be safe before it is given to
    children”
    Surgeon General Leonard Scheele (AMA Convention 1955, USA)

    “Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”
    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

    Perhaps looking these up below is a good idea.

    GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN’T SAVE US

    HISTORICAL FACTS EXPOSING THE DANGERS AND INEFFECTIVENESS OF VACCINES

    DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

    WHY VACCINES ARE INEFFECTIVE

    WHY VACCINES ARE HARMFUL

    WHY VACCINATION CONTINUES

    THE BENEFICIAL NATURE OF CHILDHOOD INFECTION

    HEALTH – THE ONLY IMMUNITY

    THE HOPEWOOD CHILDREN – AUSTRALIA’S HEALTHIEST KIDS

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Thanks for those references. Are there published peer-reviewed studies, though, that contain the information you note about epidemics? The quotations are interesting, but they are not the same as citing a scientific study. Thank you.

  • Mary

    Preach on Vicky – they will continue to refuse to believe it. IT does not suit their purposes to allow that they could be wrong about vaccines. Because if they are wrong about vaccines that shakes everything else they know right down to the core.

    I was wrong about vaccines. I was a young mother who trusted that vaccines were truly what they are pumped up to be. After two vaccine injured children, a husband with hearing loss, my own issues with inflammation (husband and I were/are military) and my mother’s death from ALS that has been linked to mercury and formaldyhyde (sp) over exposure, I’m not too proud to say – I WAS WRONG ABOUT VACCINES.

    They are dangerous, they are unneeded and they are the worst marketing scam to ever hit humankind.

    It took me literally ten seconds to come up with these graphs online – I suppose that one or all of the naysayers will debate them on the basis of ??

    http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html

    http://www.healthsentinel.com/graphs.php

    http://www.whale.to/a/graphs.html

    I also find it hard to believe that I’m debating with people who haven’t even done this much research on their own that they need ME to find them these very blatant and convincing graphs of disease.

    WAKE UP people – vaccines are a trillion dollar a year business world wide. What will it take for you to pull your heads out and realize that it’s MONEY talking, not safety, not disease, not your best interests?

    You know what would take care of disease?? Vitamin C – Vitamin A – selenium – clean water – clean housing – sanitation – sleep – a loving home and other COMMON SENSE factors to life. NOT VACCINES.

  • Mary

    Kristina,

    Do you really, truly believe that scientific studies aren’t fallible? Do you really, truly think that someone being paid by a vaccine maker is able to be fair and without bias in their findings?

    Have you read: The Virus and the Vaccine?
    Have you read anything that wasn’t promoting vaccines?

    Have you even been through the tons and tons of evidence online on sites that aren’t by the CDC and FDA?

    Have you read “Discarded Science” to see how many things we “used” to believe in but later looked like fools for believing in?

    Do you really and truly think that your education and what you believe trumps a parent standing over their dead child HOURS or even MINUTES after a vaccine?

    Do you really truly believe that babies born to non-Hep B mothers need a VACCINE hours after birth when their own immune systems haven’t even kicked in?

    Do you really and truly think that formula and scientists know more than mothers and millions of years of evolution?

    Breast feed your babies
    Don’t vaccinate your babies
    Feed your babies REAL food devoid of toxins and fake ingreidents they are trying to feed us
    Make your babies home life without discord, smoking, drugs or stress
    Get sunlight
    Exercise

    IT’s that simple most days…………. vaccines are a joke.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again, just for the bats that have left the belfry here:
    It’s going to take an outbreak of one of the diseases against which we vaccinate before people will finally realize the consequences of this behavior of insisting on a link between vaccines and autism when there is no scientific evidence whatsoever to support it. This insistence on a link in the face of all evidence to the contrary is going to lead to the deaths of children from these diseases because of a drop in vaccinations and a loss of herd immunity, and every word that is written alleging this false link is a step toward that outcome. It’s short-sighted, ill-informed, irresponsible behavior that nothing short of the scenario I’ve described will apparently stop. As long as people insist on remaining underinformed or willfully ignorant, as long as they block progress by sticking to this nonstarter of a hypothesis, we move inexorably toward that outcome, and we move no closer to understanding the true mechanisms of autism.

    Science, including abundant and ever-growing genetic evidence, does not support the hypothesis that vaccines or mercury et al. are responsible. This vaccines/mercury/MMR crap is a deadly dog-and-pony show with people like Kirby as the self-aggrandizing ringmasters. I’m personally sick of it, but the human capacity for willful ignorance and indefensible, angry posturing is apparently bottomless–thus the show goes on, afflicting theoretically otherwise sensible people like a contagion. Wish there were a vaccine for that.

    I find this especially precious:
    “Do you really and truly think that formula and scientists know more than mothers and millions of years of evolution?

    Breast feed your babies
    Don’t vaccinate your babies
    Feed your babies REAL food devoid of toxins and fake ingreidents they are trying to feed us
    Make your babies home life without discord, smoking, drugs or stress
    Get sunlight
    Exercise

    IT’s that simple most days…………. vaccines are a joke.”
    That “simple formula” and reliance on “evolution” (whatever you think that is) resulted in infant mortality rates of 50% or greater throughout most of human history.

    Again, if you want to persist in being ill-informed, that’s your business. I’m not sure which is more annoying–the willful ignorance or this flood of emotion with the ALL CAPS and the exclamation points, ad nauseum. Noise noise noise.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    I think we only need to consider the 12 cases of measles in San Diego to see what happens without vaccines.

  • http://blogwithoutatopic.web-log.nl Norah

    Plenty of polio cases in our villages still among the people who don’t vaccinate for religious reasons. Quite a few of them bear lifelong results of having had the illness, with a big chance of a kind of relapse of some symptoms some 15-30 years later, which means they again have a chance of dying. Others are dead. Their water must not have been as clean as ours (yeah right, the lived down the same street). Or maybe they didn’t take enough vitamine C. I’m sure they’d love to hear that. Oh yeah, especially that maybe their homes aren’t, you know, loving and without discord. Must have been all the drugs they took! They actually did everything on that little list.

  • Jen

    We live in Canada, where the Hep B vaccine is not given until after the child turns 12, and where pediatric vaccines have not contained Thiomersal since 2002, with the exception of the influenza vaccine (which he has not received, and which I did not receive when pregnant or nursing). In addition, he was exhibiting autistic traits before receiving his MMR vaccine at one year, and did not have a history of ear infections or other illnesses, which would indicate a suppressed or damaged immune system, nor did he ever have a fever following any of his immunizations. Therefore, I have to conclude that, at least in the case of my child, vaccines did not contribute to his autism. It’s not a matter of “refusing to believe”, it’s a matter of listening to the evidence.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Norah, they probably didn’t get enough sun.

    Also, shhhh. Don’t tell anyone, but selenium is toxic to the thyroid, among other adverse endocrine effects, and a semi-metal; vitamin A can kill you, and vitamin C in large doses causes abortions. Shhhh. I’d type it in all caps, but the bats might see.

  • Chuck

    Emily,

    The US has an outbreak of one of the diseases against which we vaccinate every year and according to CDC statistics 36,000 die. If people don’t appreciate the consequences of this, then what will 64 non-lethal cases of anything do?

    All of the most recent cases of measles have been imported so herd immunity has become irrelevant since “Around the world in 80 days” has become “Around the world in 40 hours”. How many vaccine preventable illnesses are contagious and not symptomatic for 36 hours or less? From where you are, do you think you could reach most major population center on this planet in 36 hours?

  • Vicky

    Kristina – I was referring to the official UK government statistics of disease incidence: HMSO (Her Majesty’s Stationery Office) ‘Immunisations against infectious disease: Incidence of infectious illness from the 1950s and mortality rates from infectious illnesses from the 1850s’. The graphs contained within strongly mirror the information contained in the references from Mary above but to put it on a plate:
    The death rate from measles in 1850 in the UK was around 1150 per million children. In 1955 it was down to less than 10 per million children. Vaccination was introduced in 1968 and had NO impact on death rates from the disease at all. A similar situation exists for diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough. (In fact whooping cough incidence rose slightly after the introduction of vaccination and fell in the 1970s when a scare around its association with brain injury caused the immunisation figures to fall).

    Most interestingly, is the course of scarlet fever. This disease followed the same trend of decline as all the other childhood diseases. In 1866 in the UK, 2300 children per million died of scarlet fever. By 1950 this rate had fallen to zero and fairly recently the disease in UK has been ‘downgraded’ to scarlatina because it is now so mild. THERE WAS NEVER A VACCINE FOR THIS DISEASE.
    What does this tell you? We are an eternally evolving species who – given beneficial conditions in diet, environment and general well-being – will develop resistance to diseases which previously killed us. This kind of immunity occurs in the whole body, it cannot be reduced down to the existence of antibodies (which even WHO admit is not an indicator of resistance) it is an immunity which, unlike most vaccination antibodies, lasts a lifetime.
    Who developed the vaccine for Bubonic Plague? Why does the common cold no longer kill us?

    Allow a child to develop with a healthy Thymus Gland, undamaged by assaults on it from six weeks old. Leave its brain undamaged by encephalitis caused by formaldehyde and heavy metals. Allow its immune system to mature unfettered by vaccines contaminated by animal viruses from monkey kidneys or human viruses from aborted foetuses. You might be amazed how healthy that child will be.

  • Mary

    Wow.

    Okay, I give. Thankfully I am very aware of what anything in lethal doses can do, even Vit. C, but clearly you don’t understand how beneficial it can be. Read more about Vitamin C that doesn’t come from the same old sources.

    Bring on the measles. Do you realize that at its worst, it supposedly affected 4 Million Americans, and out of those 4 MILLION (yes, all caps, because most people stuck in a rut really like them) there were only 500 deaths. At its worst. I’m not math whiz, but I’ll take those odds with my healthy children, any day over life long RA that can do as much damage as Polio.

    Children die from RA and they can die from Polio, so I ask again, what difference is it? What have we gained?

    My daughter got JRA from her 1 year old MMR shots. No question, from a specialists mouth, and has to fight it off everyday of her life now. It is under control now but at one time we feared the inflammation of her organs and death.

    Give me measles instead. We have gained nothing and have actually made matters worse.

    Look at any vintage medical text, Measles was NO big deal until they started making millions off the vaccines. Now it’s a killer………..ooooohhhhh, scary.

    Can anyone here, anyone at all prove 36,000 deaths from the CDC. To my understanding that is not a valid number and they estimated deaths, those were not actual provable deaths.

    And Emily – you can be flip all you want. My children are now healthy as I can make them and yes, that includes their bodies making Vit D from getting something as simple as sunshine.

    And yes, in other countries, polio has been treated with high doses of IV Vitamin C – do your homework before you make fun of something – and do you know why we don’t do it here? No money in Vitamin C. It’s that simple.

    Follow the money………………… and greed.

  • Mary

    Kristina – 12 whole cases of measles. Really? Measles was a non-issue before vaccines in which children who were relatively healthy survived. The majority of measles deaths has underlying conditions, unsanitary conditions and or poor medical care.

    And as Vicky has already stated time and again these diseases were going down on their own BEFORE vaccination. Why does no one address that part of the argument.

    Norah, unless YOU lived with those people you have no idea how they lived, what they did to combat illness, what their underlying conditions may be or whether their family is or was stressful. Stress and lack of sleep affect us much much more than the average person would like to believe.

    Anyway,,,,,,,,,,,,,, off to work.

  • Vicky

    Note: the ONE child in 2006 who died after contracting the measles virus was in diminished health beforehand, living in a travelling community with poor sanitation and was suffering from a pre-existing illness.

    Measles still kills and maims children in developing countries -vaccinated or not – when they are malnourished (particularly when they lack vitamin A), when they are without shelter and when their immunity is already being taxed.

    Kristina – the incidence of 12 measles cases is not cause for panic (or panic mongering). See, The Lancet, Jan 5 1985 Suppression of Measles Rash and link with chronic disease.

    In the 1960s and 1970s parents of young children regularly held ‘measles parties’, to ensure their children contracted this relatively harmless illness sooner rather than later when symptoms are more severe. Death rates and complications from the disease were extremely rare (similar rates in the UK to today when vaccination is widespread).

    The hype around measles is outrageous and designed purely to keep vaccination levels (and pharma profits) high. A healthy child contracting this virus has an extremely rare chance of experiencing any of the complications which are touted as the norm.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Mary, clearly I don’t understand the benefits of vitamin C? From what, exactly, do you derive that information? If you’re using the same reasoning to arrive at your unsupported assertions and conclusions, then I rest my case. I’m glad your children are healthy. I actually don’t disagree in the slightest with your overall rx for good health, and it is one we follow. But you’re naive at best. At best.

  • Gaye

    Jen, you are dead right, there are children in the past who had autism even before immunizations, but the numbers were so very few, so few that in all my husbands 42 years of teaching/Principal he only came across his first case 23 years ago, which shows that there is perhaps a weakness or heredity connection there, but why is there such an epidemic now and it has never been in the family history before, just as with asthma, there was only one child in our school who had asthma, and no one had ADD (or was out of control) but now when my husband takes kids on a school camp half to three quarters of the class front up two to three times a day for their medications.

  • Gaye

    Emily, just take a look on the net, The Journal of the American Medical Association, which claims that vitamins actually increase the risk of death.
    Of course, this is research from conventional medicine – an industry that promotes patented chemicals as perfectly safe, even though FDA-approved pharmaceuticals and Dr’s are the 4th cause of death in America of over 120,000 Americans each year. (Imagine the uproar if vitamins killed even a fraction of that number…)
    Their studies are dont on chemical vitamins which are no better for you than eating concrete, in fact concrete would probably do you better.

  • Gaye

    “Death by Medicine, demonstrates that the leading cause of death in America is not heart disease or cancer, but medical mistakes. In a seminal research paper authored by Gary Null, Ph.D., Carolyn Dean, MD, Martin Feldman, MD, and others (2003), all of the relevant statistics regarding deaths caused by medicine have been collected into a single research report. According to the report, the most conservative reading of statistics culled from government and peer reviewed journals shows that 751,936 Americans die every year as a result of medical error, also known as iatrogenesis. This is the equivalent of over six jumbo jets filled with passengers falling out of the sky every day. Never before have all the death rates from adverse drug reactions, unnecessary surgeries, medical errors, infections, malnutrition, bedsores, and nursing home mistakes been collected into a single research report. The paper is still undergoing peer review, revisions, and an analysis of its compiled statistics,and it seems that the final report will be a scathing indictment of allopathic medicine and how it is practiced in the United States today. A summary of the paper’s basic findings were published in Nexxus Magazine.” ~Nutrition Institute of America
    http://www.nutritioninstituteofamerica.net/ResearchOverview.htm

  • Gaye

    01 July 2002
    The pharmaceutical industry is the only industry in the world enjoying an enormous increase in revenue of 15-20 per cent, year on year on year, during an economic cycle when the rest of global industry has been enduring flat growth.

    Pharmaceuticals make up the most profitable industry sector in the world. In the year 2000, the top 20 drug companies had combined sales of £135 billion, and an average growth rate of 11 per cent. Sales topped £155 billion in 2001, double the revenues achieved in 1997.

    The overall profitability of pharmaceuticals was further emphasised in the Fortune 500 list. While the average Fortune 500 company saw profits during 2001 nosedive by 53 per cent, the drug companies on the list saw theirs leap another 33 per cent.
    The trend is continuing. The total spend on prescription drugs in the USA in 2000, the last year under review by the NIHCM study, was $132 billion. This rose in 2001 to $175 billion, and it is set to reach $200 billion in 2002.

  • Mary

    Emily – I find it strange that you feel the need or ability to question my intelligence without posting even one source of your own?

    Ego or simply rudeness?

    What is your education? Since you seem to think that it’s the only thing that stops you from being as naive as me?

    I got my info from two sources:
    Just a Little Prick by Hillary Butler (New Zealand)
    and
    Ascorbate: The science of Vitamin C by Dr. Steve Hickey and Dr. Hilary Roberts.

    Please, do feel free to post your own resources as to all of your so called knowledge. I wait with bated breath………..

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    It’s usually ego and rudeness, simultaneously, in different doses, depending on the day. Please, don’t hold your breath, or bate it, because I’m not going to tell you my life story simply to justify myself on a blog. And naivety =/ to stupidity. You simply strike me as being incredibly naive. I probably shouldn’t tell you that because it’s rude, but it’s what I think. My ego has nothing to do with that particular opinion. Neither does my education. Quite well-educated people can be hopelessly naive, and the most street-smart people can have little standard education.

    These things being asserted here have cycled through these blogs endlessly, and it gets old. I just posted a comment on another thread that I swear off reading them, but then fall into the habit again…it’s like watching a train wreck. I don’t post sources because I don’t need to. A search of PubMed, a look at some very well-done research and collated information by thorough bloggers…these are out there, freely searchable. You and Gaye have just materialized, but this stuff has been here over and over and over again.

    I like the way people assume certain things about me (or about Kristina or about anyone) and my lifestyle or attitudes simply because I don’t come down on the side of “vaccines are evil.” It’s an odd thing to use as a litmus test, but people apply it freely. You concluded that I needed an eddymacation in Vitamin C based on no information whatsoever. Had I come on here, frothing at the mouth about how evil vaccines are, you’d likely have assumed that I have PhD in Supplementology.

  • Mary

    Well Emily, your own ass-umptions are getting to you because:

    1) I’ve been on this blog much longer than you realize clearly, go back months and months and you’ll find “mary” a time or two;
    2) I totally agree that a person’s education has NOTHING to do with what is reality or what is the truth of anything;
    3) Everyone’s “reality” is nothing but perception in disguise. Your “reality” and therefore what you believe to be true is nothing more than bias and what you have experienced, and the same goes for any one of us on the Internet, at school, in science, as a doctor, as a teacher, or anything else. We believe what we seek out to find.

    I sought out the dangers of vaccines and I found it and I’ll shout it loud and proud because there are other mothers out there like me who didn’t know that you could opt-out of vaccines. They didn’t know that if you receive WIC or other services you still can opt-out of vaccines. They are easily intimidated by what they perceive as people that are “smarter” than them based on letters after a name or two letters before a name (Dr).

    And I voice my opinion because it’s been nothing short of an ephiphany to realize that everything I once believed in is bullshit.

    Everything that has harmed my health is bullshit. My mother’s health. My daughter’s health. My husband’s hearing. It’s all bullshit. There has been an easier, more simple way all along and it’s nothing more than a simple life devoid of chemicals and crap.

    I now grow my own garden, which is a challenge I never anticipated needing. I cook without teflon or a microwave. There is NO soda in my home and if I could replace my home with strawbale one I would.

    AND I’m a staunch conservative that’s angry as hell at the current spending programs and privacy invasions.

    See, Emily, you don’t know shit about me anymore than I know shit about you. And yes, I’m coarse, and yes I’m probably writing at a level that you’ll likely poo-poo for curse words, but really, who gives a rat’s ass?

    Someone, somewhere is reading what I have to say and they are questioning the status quo of vaccinating their children and that is my goal.

    If you want to continue to vaccinate your children right into their graves, please feel free.

  • Gaye

    Emily, you will not get your point across by being nasty about those who do not believe in immunization. I have noticed that there is a lot of very intellegent opinions on here and so far it is only yours that has something nasty to say..
    Emily, I am sorry but I think it is you who needs to do some more reading, and yes there is a mass of stuff out there proving your point from the medical professions and scientists but there is also much that is against also from Dr’s and scientists, and with one in 5 children now chronically sick in America acording to the American medical association there has to be a reason, and I am not saying that it is only immunizations but with the mass of poisons in every injection it sure can compromise a child who is already low in health and it goes a long way towards killing our children either straight away or slowly over the years. The are children dying with cancers, and children with ADD, ADHD, Autism young women with breast cancers etc children dying of cancers is something we hardly heard of 45 years ago, in fact cancer is now way up the top there in deaths, hospitals are full of children with cancers. one has to surely wonder why??
    We also have our water ways full of chemicals, our air is full of chemicals so put all this with the chemicals in immunization and we have a a time bomb which can go off in us at anytime before we die.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    I’m sorry. What did I say that was “nasty”? Did I unleash a diatribe of solid, trustworthy Anglo-Saxonisms against someone? I don’t think telling someone they’re naive is “nasty,” but…to each her own. I appreciate, however, yet another lecture on how desperately I need to educate myself about the toxins in our world. Phew. Where would I be without you?

  • Gaye

    Emily you said…
    I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again, just for the bats that have left the belfry here:
    sorry if I took it wrong..
    Emily, Selenium is fairly good in America but low in NZ, Australia and Finland…but just because a country has fairly good amounts in the soil it doesn’t necessary mean that people are getting enough.
    Studies have discovered that there’s about 35 proteins in the body that require Selenium to be synthesized and function. One of them for example is glutathione peroxidase, and it’s an antioxidant enzyme. It’s also involved in iodine metabolism, (which is probably what you were talking about Emily regards the thyroid, toooo much iodine is is dangerous for the thyroid), and a number of enzymes that are involved in metabolic regulation. It’s probably the antioxidant role that’s most important, so it might do things like protect the DNA from damage, protect membranes from damage.

    In the US, Nutritional Prevention Cancer Trial supplemented apparently healthy individuals with 200 micrograms of Selenium a day, so that’s about two to three times the recommended dietary intake. And what they showed was that there was a decrease in total incidents and mortality from cancer, and also a decrease of about 50% in the risk of prostate cancer. But although it was a well-designed trial, it was a relatively small trial, and it is toxic, and that’s one of the issues, there’s not a lot of space between requirement and toxicity. The best form to take is organic Selenium, which is mostly in the form of selenomathianine. I feel that it would be very unwise to take Selenium unless people first have their levels measured, but as with anything not having enough selenium is also dangerous.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    From EpiWonk about the latest study from Geier and Geier with their co-author, Young:

    Given the increase in frequency of autism (and other neurodevelopmental disabilities) during time time period, you could do an ecological regression analysis of almost any factor that varied over time and you would find an an association with autism. I would bet that you could enter number of sushi bars per capita into an ecological regression and you’d find an association with autism rates.

    If you look for environmental causes and toxins, you will find them…….

  • Gaye

    Kristian this is why I mentioned that it is not just immunizations which are a problem but what is in our foods, air and water, and an already weak system can just give in.. but we dont need more poisons in our body…
    We all used to get what used to be called by dr’s the mild childhood diseases and we made sure our kids got them by having measles parties, no one seemed to be scared of anything and neither did the Dr’s.. but have we exchanged a few children being born deaf etc which was rare as most mothers had had measles as children, with the cancers, ADD, asthma etc of today…
    I see that you have a PhD which I presume from your remarks is in Medicine, I say that because my husband was doing a PhD but it was in education…
    There are many Dr’s and Professors against immunization..

  • a long-time poster

    ‘Discord’ appears to get the better of Mary every time.

  • Gaye

    There is much to be read like this one.
    MMR: Vaccine can cause blood disorder
    13 March 2008 …
    There’s more bad news for advocates of the MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) vaccine with the discovery this week that it can cause a blood disorder. Researchers have found that it may trigger immune thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP), an immune system malfunction that destroys the body’s own blood platelets.

    The effect seems to last for an average of seven days, during which time the child’s platelet count could fall.

    The risk is relatively low, say researchers, and one case of ITP will be caused per 40,000 vaccinations. The risk appears to last for up to 42 days after vaccination.

    Researchers from Kaiser Permanente Colorado, Denver analysed the health profiles of more than 1 million children who had been vaccinated. Of these, 259 developed ITP, and they reckon the vaccine was responsible for 76 per cent of these cases.
    …………………………..
    Mmr jab causes crohn’s and autism, say studies
    01 September 1997
    The MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccination may cause autism and Crohn’s disease, five studies to be published later this year will reveal.

    The results, based on research from the UK and other countries, “clearly confirm our suspicions and take them further”, he told the medical magazine Pulse.
    Dr Wakefield said the number of children developing Crohn’s disease had escalated dramatically since the 1960s when the measles vaccination was introduced in the UK. Doctors are sending him up to six cases a week of children with Crohn’s or with autistic disturbances believed to be brought on by the MMR vaccine.
    The vaccines may open the door for other serotypes to emerge as new threats, two doctors at the Malmo University Hospital in Sweden have warned (Lancet, 1997; 350: 222). warned.

    (Source: Pediatrics, 2008; 121: e687-e692).

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    My son’s had all of his immunizations and they did not cause him to be autistic.

    It’s possible to point to any environmental factor as a possible “cause” of autism. One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that it’s only in the past several years that we have begun to pay attention to the environment, its pollution, and the effects of these on people. “The environment” is the oft-cited factor for asthma and many other conditions—-so it’s not surprising that people might try to link it to autism.

  • Gaye

    Mary, Although there is a mass if information from Dr/s and other well qualified professionals, we don’t even need to seek out what they say, the evidence is right in front of us…

    One in five children in the USA has a chronic illness. The figure has trebled in the last 20 years, mainly because of rising levels of asthma, obesity and ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder), And more than 1 million children now receive disability benefit from the government, and a new study estimates that 5 million children – that’s 7 per cent of all children in the USA – have an illness that limits their daily activities.
    While better diagnosis may explain some of the increase, researchers believe it is primarily down to poor lifestyle – such as a bad diet and lack exercise – and environmental factors, such as pollution.

    (Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, 2007; 297: 2755-9).

    Now what life style could have been worse than during the depression and wars.. but notice it has drastically increased over the past 20 years, hmmmm.. and diagnosis doesn’t explain anything, surely parents had the brains to know that something was wrong with their children 20 years ago all diagnosis does is give the problem a name, but according to the American Medical Association disease has trebled in the past 20 years…..

  • Gaye

    Kristina, two of my grandchildren have also had all their immunizations also, and other than them getting measles, they also have had no problems thus far, except they are always sick with something… two of my other grand children have had terrible problems thus the other two haven’t been immunized..
    Kristina, people link it to autism simply because it is within hrs sometimes that the hell starts often with the screaming, or being in pain, massive temps etc, some start off with just exceptional temps which often lead to they eyes becoming dull, which the parent attributes to the child just being sick at first, but within days more obvious problems arise, however as immunization is often only tested for a very short time Dr’s do not attribute the problem to the immunization if it has been longer than a few days.. even though the symptoms were there from the beginning.. My husband specialises in bright children and or children with neurological problems.

  • Gaye

    Vicky
    you wrote yesterday about the hype on measles etc, and I so agree with you.. Dr’s used to tell us to not worry it was just a mild childhood disease, and like all diseases keep them quite and comfortable with lots of water. BUT now they call these mild child diseases, killer diseases..
    I don’t hear Dr’s calling immunizations which are killing hundreds of children, killer Immunizations.. The real weapons of mass destruction is Immunization, with one in 5 American children now chronically sick…..And another thing..
    The number of children diagnosed with blindness is rapidly increasing. According to a study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,
    nearly one in every 150 US children is blind. These numbers are startling, and this disability is affecting more and more families. Twenty years
    ago, blindness was a very rare case.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Gaye, yes, that’s exactly why people link the immunizations to autism, that they see changes after their child receives the shots. I’ve read too many stories that use that exact language. I think there’s a need to find a cause to point to.

    In the case of Michelle Cedillo (the first case tried in the “Autism Omnibus”), videos of her as a baby showed that she already did not have joint attention and that her play was already repetitive—-that she already had signs of autism.

  • Mary

    Kristina,
    It pains me that you can’t realize that whatever mom is lacking in the womb or is over toxic of in the womb will affect the baby. Yes, babies may be born toxic already, that’s clear, but that still does not mean that vaccines are not a HUGE and major factor in the cases of austism in our country.

    I find it really, really sad that although you clearly have all the education available to you, you still refuse to see your own child’s struggle and still vaccinate.That is exactly what I refer to when I say that I could never vaccinate my third child knowing what I know about my first two.

    For those that don’t know my first ended up in ER after vaccines for two days and for two spinal taps and almost died from a “menengitis (sp) like” condition. That’s it. That’s all they could ever tell me. Meanwhile my mother was dying of ALS.

    Then my second daughter got JRA from her MMR shots. Documented with fancy specialists to prove the connection. However, no one bothered to tell me about the injury compensation program.

    Then my husband lost part of his hearing. A man who wears hearing protection to mow his grass from the Hep B series from the military. He was waived from the third shot, which is almost unheard of in the military. So, yes, my third son is totally unvaxxed and he is the healthiest child I’ve had. No ear infections. No problems walking, talking, running, he’s close to perfect for his age.

    But you kept on vaccinating, knowing that your child’s body was already fighting autism and overloaded because you “dont’ believe” that vaccines cause it.

    So, then you must know what does cause it? TV? That was one article in a magazine, or maybe you think air pollution trumps mercury shot directly into a child’s veins. Maybe formaldahyde (used to preserve corpses) is a-okay in a baby’s system?

    I used to post here to think I was doing a service, sharing info that someone with your education may not have considered, but I can see that it’s just a sad case of ego and “too much education” getting in your way. You have lost the very thing that used to keep children safe and alive from the govt., and other dangers, your mother’s instinct.

    Have a good one.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Mary,

    My son’s “perfect for his age”—thanks for the nice phrasing!

    Education is the most important thing for all of our children to prepare them for good lives. Very best—-

  • Mary

    Education, of which I have plenty, is not the same as good old fashioned common sense. If your son was “perfect for his age” then he would be meeting each and every milestone that would deem him not autistic.

    While I realize you think he’s perfect because he’s your son, he’s not likely to go on and even have the same kind of life you have had. I do not, nor will I ever, understand all the parents that are more than willing to roll over and say “oh, but he’s just perfect for me.”

    Your son has been injured in a way that will never be changed. You can chelate, you can detox, you can have all the opportunities in the world, but the damage was done when you started putting toxins into an already overloaded body and all you can say is that he’s perfect and you’re happy with the results?

    Well, my daughter was injured and she’s not perfect for her age (but damn you should see her try), nor was she when her most important milestones should have been met. And I’m still angry about it. There was no way, with a medical history like ours that she should have even gotten vaccines, but they dont’ bother to tell you that, do they. They dont’ even do the most basic of questions as to the child. Nope, all about moving them in and moving them out.

    Nope. Shoot em all up. Safety, convenience, money — it’s about everything BUT the child.

    Sad and sadder.

  • Gaye

    Kristina,
    There are thousands of children out there who were happy little mites and going through the normal growth stages with smiling faces chatting away like chip monks, and then after their second immunization it appears it was all down hill.
    I do not have any children with health problems so I dont have this experience, and as I said my husband who has been a Principal/teacher for over 40 years did not see these problems 25 years ago, most kids in school were healthy..

  • Gaye

    Mary, don’t give up, I was a nurse many years ago (which seems like centuries ago), and I know that it is nothing like being a Dr but still experience and years of learning is something. I went into natural medicines for three reasons, one was that I saw the good and bad of pharmaceutical drugs and the damage that they did.
    Two, I realised that Dr’s are only doctrinated in the ways of drugs and by the pharmaceutical companies, and Dr’s don’t really have time to study anything else for themselves. However, there is a growing number of Dr’s who are now becoming aware and are studying outside their realm.
    And Number three, because I decided that although we are constantly told that natural medicines are dangerous and haven’t gone through the process of research??? I would rather trust the centuries of what people have found to work and what didn’t, than use drugs which has only been around for about 150 or 200 years and it is the biggest profit making business in America, I use drugs only as a last resort …the very things that Dr’s say are not any good for us are the food that we have been given for the benefit and healing of our bodies and are supposed to hold every nutrient that the body needs. Having said that many wonderful strides have been made in medicine but in many cases there are consequences..

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Well, for centuries, they used arsenic and mercury as curatives for many things. Would you rather trust that? I know, let’s go back to the “humors” and “miasma” hypotheses that prevailed into the late 19th century. Then we can start bleeding people again, especially to cure all that “hysteria” in women.

    And the reasons these “drugs” (which often are derived from the very “natural” medicines you cling to) are efficiacious is the very fact that they’ve been tested and demonstrated to be efficacious. You cite drug company greed. The thing is, drug companies don’t stop researchers from assessing the effectiveness of any given compound, and researchers all over the world do this for “natural” medicines. There are entire journals devoted to it. It’s quite productive in Germany, which has a greater systematic promotion of them. And when research demonstrates (or not) the efficacy, then this drug therapy becomes part of the canon of chemicals addressed using the scientific method. And that confers a validity and cachet on their use that is far more trustworthy than millennia of old wives’ tales.

    Medicinal therapies and their testing are not only in the hands of MDs or drug companies. Whether they are widely marketed and FDA tested is another story, but if the research is worthy, it will be done, and in many cases has been done. Echinacea and zinc come to mind. And it will be widely reported, FDA approval or drug company imprimatur or not.

    Thus, there is no point in cutting out scientific research and not trusting it. Encouraging testing of these “remedies” through the systematic application of the scientific method is useful, as always, in weeding out those that are genuinely the product of old wives’ tales and identifying those that have efficacy. Even more important, we can identify the mechanisms of that efficacy, opening the door to further investigations.

    Screaming for the heads of science and medicine and pointing the finger of broad conspiracy sets up a battleground rather than a pursuit of knowledge. It makes the “natural” med people look like a bunch of barking lunatics, which puts of the personality types of most scientists and inclines them to dismiss the lunatics, rather than to pursue their claims. The better route is to turn to science to demonstrate that what you believe the medicines do is something that they do. “Data” is not the plural of anecdote. Data are derived from application of the scientific method. If the “natural” remedies are truly effective, then you have nothing to fear from the process.

  • Gaye

    Emily
    I do think that we have advanced a little further than the dark ages, but with drugs being the 4th cause of death in America perhaps not much further..
    It is like anything, just because a few footballers go out and booze up large and rape a couple of girls doesn’t mean that all sports people are bad..
    Of course there was some terrible things went on back then like bleeding a person, keeping them in a dark room, but I am sure with our so called more enlightened age we have advanced at least a little past that.. Chinese medicines have been around far longer than us bleeding people..
    I would be more inclined to trust researchers if they weren’t paid off by the drug companies, even the ghost writers are paid by the drug companies.
    Then why oh why is there constantly drugs being taken off the market after they discover that many hundreds of people have died, or had such side effects that they will never be the same again. Why do we have to take something then something else to address the side effects of the first drug, my brother in law is taking 15 tablets a day now all to help counteract something else or something that has been caused by another drug..
    And yes drugs come from the natural, but instead of promoting the plant that they have taken it from which is on a far more natural form, they have to be made into the chemical before the company can make money out of it so even if the natural is very effective they have to change it so as to get the money.

  • Mary

    Well, this was too delicious not to share…. your special dr. offit is a paid stooge of the drug companies.

    The book he wrote for parents was paid for by Merck…. yeah, he’s real open and no ethical implications there at all………..

    He has rc’d hundreds of thousands of dollars for so called research, holds a vaccine patent and acts (is paid) to be a consultant to Merck………

    Now, if I could only get to the other post to put this down, but alas, I’ve deleted all autism vox emails…………oh well, hopefully smarties like Emily and HCN and Kassiane know how to get here…..

    Offit — I’m still laughing………..

  • Gaye

    Why is there so many people who have been given up by the medical profession and told to go home and get their house in order but in desperation they have tried natural products and been cured??? I personally know of at least 3.. I also know of a couple who were so far gone but the natural gave them another year on top of what the Dr had given them, but maybe if they had gone to the natural first they might even be alive today. One friend who had lymph cancer and now 15 years later has a full life insurance policy and 2 beautiful children, but of course he is only in remission after having been given 3/6 months to live by the Dr’s..
    Another friend who was told to not take anything other than what they gave her but who took the natural medicine anyway all the way through her chemo faired so well that the Dr’s couldn’t understand why she recovered so quickly but of course she didn’t dare tell them what she was taking, she would have been ridiculed. For anyone reading this, I would NOT do this unless you had advice on it, it is not something to take lightly and muck around with on your own, the people that these friends consulted outside medicine were professional Drs who also specialised in the natural..

  • Gaye

    Emily, I would trust the medical world if I didn’t see the misery that it seems to have caused, that is not to say that if I was desperate I wouldn’t use it but I sure would try other things first.. I had Arrhythmia which was so bad that my bed used to shake, I felt that my heart was going to jump out of my throat, and so did two of my friends, the Dr’s put them on a drug, but my dear Dr’s said the didn’t want me to go on it because of the side effects, so I used something else, (which I wont put on here as if it is taken for too long can also cause the problem). Now my friends are now on another drug as well and my heart is fine. I found out what was causing the problem and their drugs just hide it..

    In having said all this Emily, I know of fantastic things that medicine has done, and many millions of people would be dead without it, but I would only use it as a last resort, as so much bad has also been done with drugs.. If things are going wrong in the body, find out what is causing it and as long as it is not mechanical then fix it with good nutrition, things go wrong first off because the body is missing out on something but we hide that by taking drugs and thus so often the cause is not found..
    anyway Emily it is no good debating this, as we all have our experiences and opinions.. I just see what it is doing to my family and friends, and those who are like me are more healthy..

  • Gaye

    Mary, my heart goes out to you as you struggle with your beautiful child.. We have tried to help so many parents who are in the same position as you..
    It is horrific hearing the speech change and seeing the light go out of their eyes, of course to differing degrees with different children and dont let anyone tell you that you are not fantastic.. Keep on keeping on Mary..

  • Gaye

    Emily you said…
    there is no point in cutting out scientific research and not trusting it.
    Of course not, all we need is companies who dont put out things that they know is wrong, companies who can be trusted, even the FDA is not trusted..
    In 2007 The FDA was moving with unprecedented speed to launch a drug research center to be paid for by companies it regulates.
    The FDA is to lax on some safety issues and too cozy with drug makers.
    I have read that doctors who prescribed the drug company’s products and avoided competing drugs were paid “consulting fees” of tens of thousands of dollars. This is consulting that requires nothing more than signing a blank sheet of paper and cashing the check, of course.
    and much more.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Here’s more on Dr.Offit; extreme “dislike” of him (as expressed above) among proponents of theories that vaccines can be linked to autism is not unknown.

    http://www.autismvox.com/paul-offit-on-hannah-poling-and-the-vicp/

    http://www.autismvox.com/paul-offit-on-the-case-of-hannah-poling/

  • Vicky

    Kristina – you are incredibly selective in what you choose to address here. I thought the purpose of this kind of communication was to produce a fair and accurate appraisal of the issues within the debate – not just a repetition of the same errant statements. You have elicited information/sources from me and others but when supplied fail to respond.
    How do you marry up your views with for example, the information I gave you on disease incidence falling prior to introduction of vaccination; The peer-reviewed Lancet article on suppression of measles rash; or Mary’s comments on Dr. Offit being openly in the pay of drugs companies?

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Vicky, what is your point? That you anti-vaxers can cherry pick crap studies and bogus statements out of the literature? BFD. A diatribe against vaccination from 1899? WTF! We are now in the 21st century, not the 19th!

    It is a good thing that no one listened to those cranks on smallpox vaccination. Smallpox was eliminated by vaccines. The lives of over a billion people have been saved by smallpox vaccination.

    What about Wakefield’s “conflicts of interest”? Wakefield was in the pay of lawyers trying to scam the legal system and fraudulently made up stuff to back up his baseless assertion that MMR caused autism. Of course Wakefield tried to hide the payoffs he was given. He tried to hide it, then lied about it, then sued Brian Deer to get him to back off, then settled when Brian Deer didn’t back off and was obviously going to win.

    Why doesn’t the anti-vax community apply the same scrutiny to their own peddlers of nonsense as they do to those in the reality based community? I know what the reason is, because if they did, they wouldn’t be anti-vaxers. They would join the rest of us in the reality based community.

    Why is there the quite delusional belief that the entire medical community is in a vast conspiracy to kill and injure children? Huh? How many people do you know who would kill and injure children? I don’t know any. What basis is there for thinking that the vast majority of people I don’t know are so completely different than the people I do know? None at all, other than the xenophobic hysteria whipped up by anti-vax propagandists.

    There is an invasion of MMR/vaccine misinformation. It is coming straight from you and the other anti-vaxers.

    It is useless to argue with you and the other anti-vaxers. You didn’t come up with your anti-vax beliefs through facts, logic and reason, no amount of facts, logic and reason is going to convince you of something else.

    Those of us in the reality based community only have facts, logic and reason to work with. We are unwilling to use the lies, distortions, and delusions that are the anti-vaxers stock in trade.

    Many anti-vaxers are good at lying. Many of them even fool themselves. The anti-vax community sure gets plenty of practice. They never abandon a lie; they just set it aside until people have forgotten it, then trot it out like it was some new fact.

    BFD, Dr Offit is openly in the pay of pharmaceutical companies. Are the anti-vax propagandists in the pay of the anti-vax industry? Good question, but the anti-vax propagandists won’t tell who is paying them. Who paid David Kirby to write his book EoH? Has he ever said? Who is paying the other anti-vax propagandists? Why won’t they tell us? Do they have something to hide?

  • Mary

    daedalus2u

    So anti vaxxers cherry pick studies but pro vaxxers don’t. uh, right.

    Everyone’s reality is different. Clearly you allow studies and medical pay off people to tell you how to think. Anti vaxxers don’t.

    I used to, I will freely admit. I used to think that the doctors were layered in gold and dipped in chocolate. Then I got involved in the injuries to my family and started researching.

    The “crap” studies you refer to are only “crap” to you and yours that has a 2-inch window of what you’ll accept and what you won’t.

    Evidence of death isn’t even good enough for you a mere 48 hours after vaccination. Or do you think I made that baby girl up in my delusional head?

    I’ve asked before and I’ll ask again, what will it take for you all to realize that vaccines at the level they are given are dangerous and killing babies? Your baby? Is that what it would take? I think not since many of the readers or posters have autistic kids and just keep on pushing that crap into their systems.

    What is a lie to one person is another person’s truth.

    What you consider a LIE (and you weren’t real clear there) I might consider a revelation. Such as the fact that Vitamin C can and does cure many ills. Too simple for you I realize, but it’s true nonetheless.

    What I consider evil, said medical establishment shoving 48 vaccines in our children’s bodies, you consider world saving. Only time will tell which of us is delusional.

    As to smallpox, it was quarantine, cleaner surroundings, washing hands and burning that “saved” everyone. The vaccine was given to less than 10% of the entire population at the time, do tell how 10% saved everyone. And what of the smallpox deaths from vaccination, do they not matter at all?

    What of the deaths from polio vaccine when it first came out? What of the deaths from contaminated vaccines that we see? Or from “hot” lots?

    I’m sure to those parents, you are the one that is quite out of reality. Their reality, not your reality.

    Your reality probably drugs kids for being active, shoves soda down your throat and then takes an anti-depressant for something that a diet change and exercise would take care of .

    See you believe in science, clearly.

    And I don’t.

    So my reality is nothing more than personal experience, plus research, plus belief. I am physically standing here fighting a fever in my 8 year old hoping that it won’t trigger her JRA to attack her again. We’ve been in remission for almost two years due to a move to a drier climate, diet, sunlight (that’s right folks, sunlight is part of our protocol), vitamins, MSM, Chrondrotin (sp) found in Joint Juice, swimming, limited dairy, limited red meat, and it’s been working like a charm.

    Modern medicine wanted her on Celebrex II – a cox II inhibitor quite like Vioxx and we all know what Vioxx did. Modern medcine, after seeing her for FIVE minutes wanted her on Zyrtex – five minutes.

    I said, “Dr. she’s tired and hasn’t been sleeping last five nights. Want to make sure her lungs are clear and that I’m not missing anything.”

    Dr., “She has bags under her eyes.”

    Me, “Dr. she hasn’t been sleeping.”

    Dr., “bags are a sign of allergies.”

    Me, “so is a lack of sleep.”

    Dr., “I can put her on Zyrtex for those allergies.”

    Me, “I’m not saying that she doesn’t have any allergies, but I find it strange that you would prescribe something so strong after five minutes of seeing sleep bags.”

    Dr., “Well if you don’t want to listen I guess I’ll just listen to her lungs and you can leave.”

    Me, “that would be great, thanks. Oh, and can you wash your hands first.”

    Dr., wiping antibacterial crap all over her hands, “Why?”

    Me, “Because that syrup you put on your hands was never meant to replace hand washing and it doesn’t work as well as old fashioned hand washing either.”

    Dr., with sly smile washes her hands and then comes to me.

    I have no recourse but to use military doctors and let’s just say I’ve gotten VERY good at holding my own.

    I love the doctor who told me, “I vaccinate my own children.”

    Me, “I spank my children, will you start doing that?”

    Dr., “no, I don’t believe in spanking.”

    Me, “bingo, and I no longer believe in vaccinations.”

    That was our last “well baby” visit and I was transferred to the non-handwashing woman above…………LOL

    D — it’s useless to argue with you as well, you are stuck in books and studies while the rest of us are changing our children’s lives and seeking out knowledge right under our noses that is being ignored because it isn’t backed by a trillion dollar pharma company!

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Mary, I’m not sure what this comment has to do with autism.

  • Mary

    Kristina, did you read D’s comments?

    What did they have to do with austism?

    And as to who gets paid what: Kirby is a journalist. He’s not an “anti vaxxer” he pitched a book, an agent picked it up, then a publisher picked it up. He was paid by the publisher.

    There is no grand anti vaxx establishment that makes trillions world wide on ANY product.

    NVIC is supported through donations made by parents like me to keep them on the forefront of vaccination freedom.

    Why is this important to autism? Because you all are preaching that there is no greater lie than the link between the MMR vaccine and autism. And I am arguing that vaccines are responsible for autism and soooooooooooooo much more.

    I am arguing that a paid PR stooge like Offit should not be considered when making an informed choice.

    Do you know that Offit made the comment “a baby could get 100,000 vaccines in one day and be fine.”

    What an insane assertion. And where would all the studies be to back that up? Heck we can’t even get studies to back up 48 vaccines in six years, let alone 100K vaccines in one day.

    Source: Howard, B. 2005. “10 Vaccine Myths — Busted.” Babytalk.

    You call your guru go to doctor a man that would (and he would) give a baby 100K vaccines in one day. This is not a flip remark, he made this remark and then stood behind it by putting the article on Children’s Hospital of Philedelphia’s website!

    Yeah, that’s a doctor I’m going to believe in!

    Vaccines = Austism

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Daedalus2 comments on many posts about the science of autism and much recent research.

    More on David Kirby here.

    You views about autism and vaccines suggest that it might be helpful if you read other posts on this site (as I hope you have!) about education and teaching autistic children, and about life with autism.

  • Mary

    Actually, I really don’t read all the posts on here because I don’t agree with you or most of your readers on even the most basic of ideas, such as no longer vaccinating an already injured child.

    For those of you that believe in God, if there are any, how do you reconcile the Bible telling you not to defile your body with things like vaccines and your faith in vaccines?

    I realize science and God don’t usually go together for academics, but possibly there are one or two believers on here.

  • Gaye

    Kristina, it is simple mathematics’ years ago there was only the very odd child in a million who had autism so few that in all my husbands 40 years of teaching he had NOT come across any until 25 years ago, and surely as a Principal he would have got to hear of any children who had problems who were being hidden at home during that time.
    In that 42 years he has taught in many many schools both here in Australia and NZ.. it speaks for itself, and immunization in America is way ahead of Australia, we still feel it is wise to only give a three at a time, but it is changing.. Now they want to give it to the new born so as if something does go wrong the parents wont know that the child was NOT born that way and then drug companies wont be able to be liable..

  • Gaye

    Kristina, I think that most parents on here for or against have the common sense to read both sides of the argument, but I am afraid that Dr’s and the likes are fed only the drug companies propaganda thus there are only a few who seem to want to or have the time to want to know the other side.. Most parents who are against immunizations have wanted to do the best for their children so they have gone into it thoroughly reading up about most sides.
    I see that you have put very prominently after your name put PhD every time, what is your degree in??? I am sorry but I can also put PhD after my name and you wouldn’t have a clue as to if I am telling the truth or not, nor do you know that my husband has been a principal and teacher for 40 years, in which time he has specialised in bright children and children with neurological problems.. these problems only emerging in great numbers in the last 25 years.. and he was doing a PhD in this area but decided that it was to much of a closed book to continue at this stage.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Also among the readers here are many autistic adults.

    We have to consider how the diagnostic criteria for autism have changed in the past generation, and how (in the US, at any rate) changes in the way that children are categorized have changed. It wasn’t until the 1990s that autism became a classification to categorize US students with. Autism is being diagnosed more frequently because there is more understanding of what it is.

    Here’s my bio.

  • Gaye

    Mary, you are so right, I for one would not vaccinate a child that had already been subjected to the hell of these injections, nor one which was sick, to me that would be being very irresponsible, but of course Dr’s who have not read their information properly would say that you are being irresponsible. One Dr would not help my daughters very sick vomiting child until he had given him his immunization injection. The pamphlets themselves say to not vaccinate a sick child and I personally would not take the risk.. You are the mother and you know. As I have said on here before, when will the medical profession wake up, that even their own medical journal says–
    1 in 5 American kids are now chronically sick.
    12 July 2007
    One in five children in the USA has a chronic illness. The figure has trebled in the last 20 years, mainly because of rising levels of asthma, obesity and ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder).

    More than 1 million children now receive disability benefit from the government, and a new study estimates that 5 million children – that’s 7 per cent of all children in the USA – have an illness that limits their daily activities.
    (Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, 2007; 297: 2755-9).

  • Gaye

    So Mary, don’t be put off just find your self an informed medical Dr who specialises in the Natural as well, he has taken the time to inform himself of the dangers. You have to remember that Dr’s only get about half a days teaching on natural foods in their training and people are so sick that they don’t have time to read up on other things.. Hells teeth, kids when we were younger never had to go to Dr’s not many got sick, so it is no wonder Dr’s don’t want us to find out that immunizations can cause problems as they won’t have the customers.. Healthy people are not a source of money. And Mary you are so right, we are not to pollute our bodies.. we cant help some of it but we must avoid what we can..

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Gosh, Kristina! I don’t exist. I’m 25 and autistic. But Mary and Gaye know everything. First they say I should be dead so their precious offspring can spread preventable diseases thither and yon, now they say autistic people my age don’t exist.

    As Orac says…the stupid, it burns.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    It is Friday, when a dose of woo gets delivered.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Mary, the topic of this post is MMR/Vaccine Misinformation. You have been supplying the misinformation, I am trying to supply the correct information. Not for you, I think you are not reachable, but for the lurkers. There are some others who are trying to counter your misinformation too, Emily, Monika, Kristina.

    Regarding smallpox, you seem to be completely ignorant of the actual facts concerning it.

    http ://www.clinmedres.org/cgi/content/full/1/2/87

    There is plenty of very good, very reliable, and very well documented information on smallpox. The only way you could have missed it is though willful ignorance. Why you are choosing ignorance is not something that I understand.

    Antivaxers have been around for a long time. They seem to have not changed much. In 1721, one of them threw a bomb into the house of a vaccine proponent where it landed in the bedroom of his sick nephew.

    http ://qshc.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/13/1/82

    Using the extremely primitive methods of the time, vaccinated individuals experienced a death rate of ~2% while infected individuals had a death rate of 14.9%.

    (I put a space after the http so my message would post with the links)

    I agree with Kassiane, the stupid it burns.

  • Gaye

    Mary, Kristina has to realise that unlike pharmaceutical companies, that the people against immunizations do NOT get any money from anyone they are just people who care and are trying to warn others as to what has happened to them and their babies, however drug companies have made the biggest profit out of all companies this year…

    She has to also realise that it is not just Christians who are trying to warn the world of this epidemic of immunization, there are also thousands of people who do not believe in God who say the same things. Of course if you do believe in God you are counted as a fanatic so can be dismissed, but what Kristina doesn’t seem to realise is that there are thousands of scientists, professors, Dr’s etc who are also Christians but of course they will dismiss them also.. And yes I am angry, I am angry at the ignorance of some of these Dr’s for pushing immunizations on our children without first looking at the dangers of both sides of the issue and dismissing the knowledge of these people.. I am angry that they continue to damage children and then say that it is for the benefit of the herd, so why don’t they go across to countries where immunizations are not done and give them out free???, well we know why, there is no money in that eh, which means that disease will never ever be stamped out as it is only those who can afford it that are immunized, and drug companies will continue to make their trillions, it makes one not trust the good things that drug companies do eh.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Gaye,
    Fascinating to find oneself written about in the 3rd person on one’s own weblog!

    Very best.

  • Gaye

    Mary you said…Evidence of death isn’t even good enough for you a mere 48 hours after vaccination. Or do you think I made that baby girl up in my delusional head?

    There are hundreds of babies who die after vaccinations, I saved my Granddaugher who went blue in my arms just after being vaccinated, and we had to keep an eye on her with a monitor for months, but of course she would just have been counted as another cot death. Havent the Japanese people raised the age of the beginnings of vaccination to two years and their cot deaths have dropped drastically, and 40 years ago I cant remember knowing anyone who had babies die let alone without any cause…
    I believe that the mild child hood diseases are there for a reason, and I also believe that we are in for massive epidemics simply because these children’s immune systems are so weakened they have not been able to build up their immune system naturally. The mild child hood diseases entered the body through the nose, mouth, etc and the immune system was activated at this point, but immunizations shove it straight into the body. My Husband and a friend have had melanomas out on the site of their TB injections, but the specialist said that he wouldn’t report it as there was no evidence that people got cancers on their immune sites, well with that attitude there will never be any evidence, this says enough eh..
    you are spot on Mary, good on you for wanting to protect your child, I never saw children with all these diseases when I was nursing 40 years ago..

  • Tara

    I tried so, so hard to stay away from this topic, but maybe, just maybe my weird background might provide some fresh perspective….

    “they are just people who care and are trying to warn others as to what has happened to them and their babies”

    OK, fair enough. On the other hand, I dare to say that parent who lost the infant to pertussis (as in the outbreak Kassiane described) will also care and try to warn others about the other side of the story.

    I grew up outside US. My uncle has been disabled for life by polio back in fifties and my mother still remembers my grandmother spending hours in the church, praying that he will stay alive and maybe, just maybe be able to walk again as an additional miracle. When I was two years old (early seventies) there was an outbreak of smallpox brought into the country by person who traveled to Middle East and dozens of people died. My parents had to literally beg their doctor to get me vaccinated for smallpox since vaccine was in the short supply.

    So can you understand that I’ll definitely have very different perspective when it comes to cost/benefit analysis of vaccination? Mind you, I have two autistic children and I probably qualify for Asperger’s myself. I speak only for myself, but I’ll take autism over smallpox or polio any day.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Tara,

    thanks for the perspective—-hope you and yours are doing very well.

  • Gaye

    Tara
    Lovely to hear from you, and your opinion is of course very valuable to this debate.
    And yes small pox is a horror especially if a persons immune system is down it can cause death, and if not death in some cases it leaves horrible marks, but very really did people die from the mild childhood diseases unless their immune systems were exceptionally down or their hygiene was not so good, as people didn’t know about hygiene like we have today in fact I think that now our our immune systems are not being built up because we are tooooo clean, and with immunization we are not equipped to cope with an epidemic of which I feel that we will have.. thousands of child are getting the mild childhood diseases even after 88% of the children were vaccinated, ..and many thousands of vaccinated children are getting measles over 12 years old when it is then very dangerous..
    I am so sorry that your two children are autistic, is it hereditary??? it is so unusual for one to have it let alone both.. although today it is horrifically on the increase.

  • Gaye

    Kristina, you are right and that was very wrong of me, sorry for that…

  • Gaye

    Kassiane
    I never said that Autism didnt exist, it has always been there but not in the proportions that it is now, perhaps you havent read what I have said way back.. Years ago it would not have been called autism, they would just have thought something was wrong with the person..
    I am sorry that you have Autism and thank goodness it is obvious that you are doing well with it..

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    ….Gaye, do you have ANY IDEA how insulting you are? ANY concept at ALL?

    Replace the word “autistic” with “female”.

    Now read it out loud. To a group of little girls, and their parents. You might want to bring a shield.

    Neurobigotry: it’s alive, well, and the real horrific epidemic.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    DONT EVER PRESUME TO BE SORRY I AM WHO I AM.

    EVER.

    It isn’t appropriate. Nor is it acceptable to make assumptions about what I am like off the internet. I am who I am, and I am happy being who I am, lumps and all.

    Time for you to learn to accept that. Piss on pity.

  • Mary

    Kassiane, you have wayyyyyyy bigger problems than autism. You are rude, you are selfish and you are ignorant. You can pat yourself on the back, find a few like minds on the standard blogs, but you are still just a lonely, angry person inside.

    I’ve never met anyone quite so starkly sarcastic, and the only thing sarcasm is is pain in disguise. Perhaps it’s you that needs a few years of growing before you spout of of knowing it all.

    And yes, autism is a condition to which one could be sorry, quite like my daughter’s JRA, quite like your anger, quite like all those poooooorrr poooorrrr polio people you like to go on and on about. How is it okay to be sorry for them, but not you.

    I didn’t realize you were sooooo special.

    If anyone needs a chill pill honey, it’s you. And yes, that honey was laced with sugar.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    You don’t even know me, Mary.

    I’m sorry for your daughter. Because her mother feels SO ENTITLED to bitch at people anonymously over the internet. You want pity for yourself, and to be angry, not any actual HELP. *how’s that internet psychology? accurate?*

    My grandfather had post polio syndrome, till he died.. He got pissy about people pitying him, too. I guess it’s genetic. We’d rather live our lives than have people assume that they’re less worthy.

  • Gaye

    For goodness sake Kassiane, there was no way that I was intending to be insulting, I am so sorry that you have taken it that way.
    My heart was going out to you for goodness sake and I was just saying that I understood that people had Autism more than 30 years ago, and that it would just have been thought to be something else, and saying that people would have thought that there was just something wrong with them was a way of explaining that there was a sort of problem to greater or lesser degrees in different people,, so please except my apology…

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Gaye,
    More and more families that we’ve known and/or heard of have had more than one autistic child. There’s a family in Utah with six autistic children

    http://autismbites.com/

    This particular topic of vaccines always seems to stoke a (rather) heated discussion——-Very best.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    I am not sure which is scarier to me, the profound ignorance that these antivaxers have in spite of having access to the internet and abundant free peer-reviewed journal articles on PubMed, their frankly delusional beliefs which fly in the face of much information that is extremely well known, or their belief and statements that all medical professionals who disagree with them are monsters who would kill and maim children for a few pennies. Proclaiming a false “blood libel” on the medical profession? And this from a woman who claims to be a Christian?

    It is not a close call that vaccines have saved many lives.

    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/298/18/2155

    Are you calling every author of this paper a murderous liar? Every author of every paper they cite? Every author is part of a vast conspiracy to lie about vaccines to poison children so they can make a few pennies?

    Kassiane’s problems are not small, but she is rational and knows how to care about people she doesn’t know. Mary, your problems dwarf Kassiane’s problems. Your problems dwarf autism. What you have is worse than any disease I have read about or that I can imagine. A disease not of the mind or body, but of something more important. Something you don’t even know you are missing.

  • Tim Tucker

    @Mary – “For those of you that believe in God, if there are any, how do you reconcile the Bible telling you not to defile your body with things like vaccines and your faith in vaccines?.

    I realize science and God don’t usually go together for academics, but possibly there are one or two believers on here.”

    1. Oh, no you di’int.

    2. I’m impressed when people can type with logs sticking out of their eyes. I suppose touch typing would still work.

    3. I missed the Bible study on where Jesus (or any Biblical person) talks about vaccines. I did catch the ones about bacon cheeseburgers being not-so-great for me and that whole thing about synthetic clothes.

    4. I’m a Christian. I have an advanced degree. As a matter of fact, it was in theology (an academic Christian! Unclean! Unclean!) I can walk and chew gum at the same time. I have never walked on water. I was able to successfully turn thin air into a quarter once but my son wasn’t terribly impressed. The water into wine thing has eluded me.

    5. Get down off the cross. We need the wood.

    6. The role of savior has already been filled. But thanks for applying.

    7. I would encourage you to read Occam’s Razor (verses 3:16 and following I think), but I doubt my point would register.

    8. I am both Christian and the parent of an autistic child. I know darn well it had nothing to do with vaccines. If the goalposts would sit still for more than five minutes, I bet I could prove it to you. In the meantime, I respectfully request that you not speak on behalf of other people of faith.

    Thank you, and good night.

  • a long-time poster

    Thank-you Tim Tucker!!

    May I also say that I know Kassiane and she is a radiant, lovely, fun and dear young woman. She’s also wicked smart. ;)

  • http://autiegraph.blogspot.com Melody

    Where to begin?

    If I thought it would help, I would ask people who use things like intuition and anecdotal experiences to draw conclusions about public health matters that affect millions of people to reconsider their arguments, and their logical basis. Logic isn’t everything to life, but it’s just about everything to critical thinking.

    Also, going by the assumptions made by the anti-vax posters here, that illnesses like measles had gone down prior to vaccination programs, and also minding the claim made against vaccines by saying that epidemics come and go, so other diseases would just take their place by virtue of evolution – then why do you think that environmental toxins trump this reasoning for the development of things like asthma?

    Also, vaccines are not perfect, and like drugs they are administered on a mass scale – medicine has not advanced to the point where drugs are manufactured individually for each person, so side effects both mild and serious are inevitable. The death rates of diseases like measles have been trivialized as a small proportion (which is used to justify not vaccinating). But if this is grounds for not being concerned about a cause of illness, then why do you have such passion about deaths and serious injuries from vaccines, which are also quite minimal. What makes one risk more serious than the other? The fact that one has personally affected you and the other has not?

    To address a point which has caused serious offense: a person born autistic is not “toxic” and it is absurd that this society encourages parents to interpret atypical development as pathological. My parents raised me and my sisters with a totally different perspective – namely that it’s vastly more important to be healthy than developing “on time”. I understand that there are real concerns, particularly for independence, but I was pretty delayed in a number of skills and never got panicked about. Sure, my parents addressed (and are addressing) my greater need for assistance and skills development than is typical, but that in no way implies defect. You ought to read up on disability rights.

    There are plenty of real environmental concerns particularly as have started raising in awareness in the last fifty years. If paranoia about toxins being the cause of societies ills is all you got from the 60s then good grief.

    Some people have conditions and shouldn’t get vaccines, and perhaps it would be better to focus efforts of research and healthcare organization to better identify people who can’t have the vaccine. Of course healthcare needs much reform, and medical mistakes are a grave concern, as well as direct-to-consumer drug advertising and the quick-fix-pop-a-pill tendency, these are real concerns; let’s not entangle them with the myth that vaccines cause (autism) and everything under the sun.

    Also I must note, that for someone to take some article they’ve seen either on TV, Internet, or general consumption magazine claiming that autism is caused by TV, then I must think that this person has little idea of critical analysis, scientific peer review, or autism itself.

  • http://autiegraph.blogspot.com Melody

    Just to clarify -

    When I wrote: “Also, going by the assumptions made by the anti-vax posters here, that illnesses like measles had gone down prior to vaccination programs, and also minding the claim made against vaccines by saying that epidemics come and go, so other diseases would just take their place by virtue of evolution – then why do you think that environmental toxins trump this reasoning for the development of things like asthma?”

    I was referring to the claim made by some people posting here that things like asthma and cancers have gone up since vaccination programs in the last fifty years or so (I haven’t checked the factual accuracy of this claim at all, I am looking at an inconsistency of argument ASSUMING that what they have claimed is so).

    If, as the person/people writing have claimed, that things like measles made dramatic decline before the vaccination programs, and that these other illnesses started increasing after that, then how come you favor the “vaccines caused this rise” over the “this is just a natural ebb and flow of disease that has nothing to do with vaccines”.

  • Gaye

    Melody
    Your own American medical journal said that it had gone up and yes I believe that there are many causes, our water with all its poisions, or food with all its chemicals, our refined foods, and the amount of time that veges and fruit stay in cold storage and are picked before they are ripe, but here is once again the quote from your medical journal..
    12 July 2007
    One in five children in the USA has a chronic illness. The figure has trebled in the last 20 years, mainly because of rising levels of asthma, obesity and ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder).
    More than 1 million children now receive disability benefit from the government.
    Source: (Journal of the American Medical Association, 2007; 297: 2755-9).

    NOTICE that it has tripled in the last 20 years..

  • Gaye

    Tim, I am not religious but I do know that science and God do go beautifully together for academics…
    Famous Scientists Who Believed in God
    Nicholas Copernicus
    Sir Francis Bacon
    Johannes Kepler
    Galileo Galilei
    Isaac Newton
    Robert Boyle
    Michael Faraday
    Gregor Mendel
    William Thomson Kelvin
    Max Planck
    Albert Einstein
    etc

  • Gaye

    and more reciently
    By Robert Roy Britt, LiveScience Staff Writer

    About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.
    Those in the social sciences are more likely to believe in God and attend religious services than researchers in the natural sciences, the study found.

    The opposite had been expected.

    Nearly 38 percent of natural scientists — people in disciplines like physics, chemistry and biology — said they do not believe in God. Only 31 percent of the social scientists do not believe.

    In the new study, Rice University sociologist Elaine Howard Ecklund surveyed 1,646 faculty members at elite research universities, asking 36 questions about belief and spiritual practices.

    “Based on previous research, we thought that social scientists would be less likely to practice religion than natural scientists are, but our data showed just the opposite,” Ecklund said.

    Some stand-out stats: 41 percent of the biologists don’t believe, while that figure is just 27 percent among political scientists.

    In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife.

  • Gaye

    There has been a lot of talk that people who dont agree with vaccination are stupid and unlearned..
    So here is a little example of what we read..

    DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS CONDEMN VACCINATION

    “There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good.”
    Dr J Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food
    and Drug Administration

    “The greatest threat of childhood disease lies in the dangerous and
    ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunisation.”
    Dr R. Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

    “In our opinion, there is now sufficient evidence of immune malfunction following current vaccination programmes to anticipate growing public demands for research investigation into alternative methods of prevention of infectious disease.”
    Dr’s H. Buttram and J. Hoffman (Vaccinations and Immune Malfunctions)

    “All vaccination has the effect of directing the three values of the blood
    into or toward the zone characteristics of cancer and leukemia…Vaccines DO predispose to cancer and leukaemia.”
    Professor L.C. Vincent, Founder of Bioelectronics

    “Every vaccine carries certain hazards and can produce inward reactions in some people…in general, there are more vaccine complications than is generally appreciated.”
    Professor George Dick, London University

  • Gaye

    “Official data have shown that the large-scale vaccinations undertaken in the US have failed to obtain any significant improvement of the diseases against which they were supposed to provide protection.”
    Dr A. Sabin, developer of the Oral Polio vaccine (lecture to Italian doctors in Piacenza, Italy, Decemebr 7th 1985)

    “In addition to the many obvious cases of mortality from these practises,
    there are also long-term hazards which are almost impossible to estimate
    accurately…the inherent danger of of all vaccine procedures should be a
    deterrent to their unnecessary or unjustifiable use.”
    Sir Graham Wilson (The Hazards of Immunisation)

    “Laying aside the very real possibility that the various vaccines are
    contaminated with animal viruses and may cause serious illness later in life (multiple sclerosis, cancer, leukaemia, etc) we must consider whether the vaccines really work for their intended purpose.”
    Dr W.C. Douglas (Cutting Edge, May 1990)

    “The only wholly safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used”
    Dr James A. Shannon, National Institute of Health, USA

    With reference to Smallpox;

    “Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine…Believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practise, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end.”
    Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy , (New York Medical Journal July 1899)

    “Vaccination does not protect, it actually renders its subjects more susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated.”
    Dr J.W. Hodge (The Vaccination Superstition)

    “It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus – and it is usually from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim … it is unthinkable that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunisation, if we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can’t do it.”
    Dr William Howard Hay (lecture to Medical Freedom Society, June 25th 1937)

    “Immunisation against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.”
    Professor Ari Zuckerman, World Health Organisation

    With reference to Whooping Cough;

    “There is no doubt in my mind that in the UK alone some hundreds, if not thousands of well infants have suffered irreparable brain damage needlessly and that their lives and those of their parents have been wrecked in consequence.”
    Professor Gordon Stewart, University of Glasgow (Here’s Health, March 1980)

    “My suspicion, which is shared by others in my profession, is that the nearly 10,000 SIDS deaths that occur in the US each year are related to one or more of the vaccines that are routinely given to children. The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is the most likely villain , but it could also be one or more of the others.”
    Dr R Mendelsohn, Author and Professor of Paediatrics (How To Raise A Healthy Child In Spite Of Your Doctor)

    “The worst vaccine of all is the whooping cough vaccine…it is responsible for a lot of deaths and for a lot of infants suffering irreversible brain damage..”
    Dr Archie Kalokerinos, Author and Vaccine Researcher (Natural Health Convention, Stanwell Tops, NSW, Australia 1987)

    With reference to Polio;

    “Many here voice a silent view that the Salk and Sabin polio vaccine, being made of monkey kidney tissue has been directly responsible for the major increase in leukaemia in this country.”
    Dr F. Klenner, Polio Researcher, USA

    “No batch of vaccine can be proved to be safe before it is given to children”
    Surgeon General Leonard Scheele (AMA Convention 1955, USA)

    “Live virus vaccines against influenza and paralytic polio, for example, may in each instance cause the disease it is intended to prevent…”

    Dr Jonas Salk, developer of first polio vaccine (Science 4/4/77 Abstracts)

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    The question to ask is, what hasn’t been pointed to as a cause of autism!

  • http://blogwithoutatopic.web-log.nl Norah

    Pink socks.

  • Mary

    I’m not even going to continue to waste my time. I have asked questions that have gone unanswered, had my child called a murderer by a supposedly “wicked smart” person who also started our exchange out by calling me a liar, and been told that I’m trying to be God.

    Uh, yeah.

    Gaye, please email me at clemonsmary@yahoo.com, I would love to talk to you further about common sense and toxins.

    I’m done. There is only so much time in the day and everyone here already knows everything.

    And to those of you who think you know me…. please. And I too have an advanced degree, I too read voraciously and have been researching vaccines for 8 years.

    IF a baby of 4 months dying 48 hours after her vaccines doesn’t affect you, then nothing will. Except maybe poor Kassiane Pertussis…. pooor pooor Kassiane………….

    I’m so done………..

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Melody, Tim, great posts both. Albert Einstein did not believe in God and ridiculed those who did so, stating that faith was the result of fear.

    For the record, I am a PhD biologist and an Episcopalian (like Tim, unclean! Unclean!).

  • Gaye

    Emily, you are right, but…
    Einstein himself stated quite clearly that he did not believe in a personal God:

    “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.”

    No personal GodSo, the quick answer to the question is that Einstein did not believe in a personal God. It is however, interesting how he arrived at that conclusion. In developing the theory of relativity, Einstein realized that the equations led to the conclusion that the universe had a beginning. He didn’t like the idea of a beginning, because he thought one would have to conclude that the universe was created by God. So, he added a cosmological constant to the equation to attempt to get rid of the beginning. He said this was one of the worst mistakes of his life. Of course, the results of Edwin Hubble confirmed that the universe was expanding and had a beginning at some point in the past. So, Einstein became a deist – a believer in an impersonal creator God:

    “I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”

  • Gaye

    However, it would also seem that Einstein was not an atheist, since he also complained about being put into that camp:

    “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”

    “I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.”

  • Gaye

    Dr. Andrew Wakefield, MB. BS. FRCS, FRCPath

    In 1998, gastroenterologist Dr. Andrew Wakefield identified a new type of bowel syndrome in children who became autistic after injection with MMR vaccine. The vaccine establishment savaged Wakefield for suggesting a link between MMR and the newly identified autistic enterocolitis. He was driven from his research position at London’s Royal Free hospital and blacklisted in medical circles. Yet his work has been replicated by other researchers. In February, 2005, autism researchers at the University of New Jersey Medical School confirmed Wakefield’s original findings and found evidence of marked inflammatory and immune abnormalities in children with autism associated with gastrointestinal symptoms: http://www.whale.to/vaccines/wakefield.html
    BUT,
    From the moment that surgeon Andrew Wakefield first published his explosive theory suggesting a link between autism, bowel disease and the measles, mumps and rubella triple jab, the government and the medical establishment have been determined to discredit him and thus destroy his research. Just as the cigarette companies did the scientist who blew the whistle on the dangers of smoking. They even went back into his childhood to try to find something to destroy him and threatened his wife and children.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    More than a few concerns about Dr. Wakefield and his ethics (and about that infamous Lancet study).

  • Gaye

    I cant get these to come up on my computer, I would be interested to see what People think..

    Vaccination Articles and Testimonies by Medical Doctors
    Vaccine articles

    Quotes

    Throwing Children into Oncoming Traffic: The Truth about Autism by Kenneth Stoller, MD, FAAP with Anne McElroy Dachel

    WHY YOU SHOULD AVOID TAKING VACCINES By Dr. James Howenstine, MD

    Daniel Marchini, M.D. testimony before the Quebec College of Physicians Medical Board

    Dr. Buchwald testimony before the Quebec College of Physicians Medical Board

    Inoculations – The True Weapons Of Mass Destruction Causing VIDS (Vaccine Induced Diseases) An Epidemic Of Genocide By Rebecca Carley, M.D.
    My understanding of the safety of anthrax vaccine and its role in GWS —Meryl Nass MD
    Dec 2003 Talking points: anthrax vaccine preliminary injunction by Meryl Nass, MD
    The Anthrax Vaccine Saga: How Not to Develop a Vaccine Program–Dr. Meryl Nass, M.D.

    THE TRUTH BEHIND THE VACCINE COVER-UP By Russell Blaylock, M.D.
    What They Don’t Tell You About Vaccination Dangers Can Kill You or Ruin Your Life By Russell L. Blaylock, M.D.

    ‘When Friends Ask Should Children Be Immunised, My Answer Is No’ By James Le Fanu

    The Medical Time Bomb of Immunisation Against Disease by Dr Robert Mendelsohn MD
    Rubella vaccine linked to Epstein-Barr Virus—Dr Mendelsohn MD (1987)
    Tetanus Vaccination by Dr Mendelsohn MD
    Flu vaccination–Dr Mendelsohn MD
    Rabies vaccine by Dr Mendelsohn MD

    Are Vaccines Causing More Disease Than They Are Curing? 1999 by Alan Cantwell, Jr., M.D.

    [2001] AIDS: Who is to Blame? Are species-jumping animal virus experiments responsible for the HIV Holocaust? By Alan Cantwell, Jr., M.D

    Blaming Gays, Blacks, and Chimps for AIDS— Are species-jumping animal virus experiments responsible for the HIV Holocaust? by Alan Cantwell, M.D.

    The Gulf Bio War: How a New AIDS-like Plague Threatens Our Armed Forces Alan R. Cantwell, Jr., M.D.

    The Secret Origin of AIDS and HIV—-Alan Cantwell Jr., M.D

    As a GP I gave kids the MMR jab. Now I wouldn’t give it to my own—-Dr Richard Halvorsen
    [Media Jan 2005 Prevnar vaccine] A JAB TOO FAR—Dr Richard Halvorsen

    Hepatitis B Vaccination Testimony by Philip Incao, M.D.
    Vaccinations and Smallpox: What you need to know by Philip Incao, M.D
    REFLECTIONS ON IMMUNITY, VACCINATIONS AND SMALLPOX–Philip Incao, M.D.

    Swine Flu vaccine by Dr Kalokerinos

    Dr Vernon Coleman MB http://www.vernoncoleman.com/vaccines.htm

    Whooping Cough vaccination–Prof Gordon Stewart

    [Media] Would you give the MMR vaccine to your children? NO says Dr Jayne Donegan
    TUBERCULOSIS: IS THE BCG VACCINE ANY GOOD? Dr Jayne L M Donegan, MBBS, DRCOG, DCH, MRCGP
    Meningitis C Vaccine—A Look at the Disease & The New Jab——- Dr Jayne L M Donegan, MB
    WHOOPING COUGH: THE DISEASE AND THE VACCINE By Dr Jayne L M Donegan, June 2000

    Vaccination—The Shot That Keeps on Shooting by Dr Thomas Levy MD

    Vaccine Scene 2000: Overview & Update—Harold Buttram MD
    Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) Vaccine as a Potential Cause of Encephalitis (Brain Inflammation) in Children—–Harold E. Buttram, MD
    The Controversy of the Latent Period following Immunizations —Harold E Buttram, MD

    Testimony of Dr Waisbren (Hep B vaccine)

    The Case Against Immunizatons By Richard Moskowitz, M. D.
    Vaccination: A Sacrament of Modern Medicine—Richard Moskowitz, M.D.
    Unvaccinated Children—Richard Moskowitz, M.D

    Vaccinations Do they pose a risk to children? Yes says Dr Michel Odent

    STATEMENT of the ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN PHYSICIANS & SURGEONS Submitted by Jane Orient, M.D.

    Are We Kidding Ourselves? By Lendon H.Smith, M.D.

    CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME: THE HIDDEN POLIO EPIDEMIC by Dr. William Campbell Douglas

    Medical Men and Vaccination– Dr. Allinson

    Autism: A Unique Type of Mercury Poisoning http://www.intuitiveparenting.org/immunizations.html Sallie Bernard*, Albert Enayati, B.S., Ch.E., M.S.M.E., Heidi Roger, Teresa Binstock, Lyn Redwood, R.N., M.S.N., C.R.N.P., Woody McGinnis, M.D.–FEAT Report
    http://www.whale.to/v/mercury2.html

    Why Vaccination Continues by Guylaine Lanctot, M.D.

    TETANUS TOXOID VACCINATION An overview by Dr. Kris Gaublomme
    Polio: the roots of the story—Kris Gaublomme, MD
    Flu vaccine–Dr K. Gaublomme MD
    Acellular pertussis—Dr. K. Gaublomme
    Hepatitis-B vaccination in newborns Kris Gaublomme, MD

    HYPING VACCINES: AN INVESTIGATION By Dr. F. Edward Yazbak

    [Feb 2004] MMR Studies that Count, Studies that Don’t – F.E. Yazbak, MD, FAAP

    REGRESSIVE AUTISM AND MMR VACCINATION

    [Dec 2002 Finnish study2] from Schafer Autism Report—-These Researchers Seem Never Finish-ed

    [Dec 2002] The MMR-Autism Debate: How Relevant is the Latest Study from Denmark? —-F. E. Yazbak, M.D., F.A.A.P.
    [Nov 2002] Epidemiological Autism Studies: Why parents of children with autism are so upset!— F. Edward Yazbak, MD, FAAP
    [Nov 2002] Autism and Inflammatory Bowel Disease in Finland: A Recent Increase.—- F. Edward Yazbak, MD, FAAP.
    Autism 2001: The Silent Epidemic —F. Edward Yazbak, MD, FAAP.
    Adverse Outcomes Associated with Postpartum Rubella or MMR Vaccine —F. Edward Yazbak, MD, FAAP and Kathy L. Lang-Radosh, MS
    Dr. Salisbury: You Are Wrong On Every Point!——- F. E. Yazbak, MD, FAAP
    [Jan 2001] An Unconvincing Finnish Study F. E. Yazbak, MD, F.A.A.P.; K. Yazbak, B.A., M.A.
    MMR or Single Antigen Vaccines: A Better Choice F.E. Yazbak, M.D., F.A.A.P.; K. Yazbak, BA, MA
    Shaken Baby Syndrome or Vaccine-Induced Encephalomyelitis?—-The Story of Baby Alan by Harold E. Buttram, M.D. & F. Edward Yazbak
    Autism, MMR and 60 Minutes Another Pediatrician’s Perspective

    Autism: Is there a vaccine connection? Part 1. Vaccination after delivery—F. Edward Yazbak, M.D., FAAP.
    Autism : Is There a Vaccine Connection? Part 2. Vaccination around Pregnancy–F.E. Yazbak, M.D., F.A.A.P
    Autism : Is There a Vaccine Connection?: Part 3. Vaccination Around Pregnancy, The Sequel—–F.E. Yazbak, M.D., F.A.A.P

    My Experience with Smallpox and Internal Vaccination by W. L. Bonnell, MD

    Smallpox by John Tilden MD

    [1925] Speech at Great Meeting held at Queen’s Hall, London, Fri, Feb 6, 1925. In connection with the Rex versus Hadwen manslaughter charge

    [1896] The Case Against Vaccination by Dr Hadwen (an address at Gloucester on Saturday, January 25th, 1896, during the Gloucester Smallpox Epidemic)

    [1923] The Fraud of Vaccination, Sanitation v. Vaccination, The Birth of the Vaccination Fraud by Dr Hadwen (From “Truth,” 1923)

    [1888] Article on ‘Vaccination’ in the ninth edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica, published in 1888

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Gaye, Since you asked what we think, I think what you posted shows that you are a completely nutty antivax whack-job.

    If you want to learn about vaccines, the Encyclopedia Britannica 1888 edition is not a source any reasonable person would choose. I have a fondness for the year 1888. It was the year my grandfather was born. He has been dead about 40 years. No, it was not vaccines that killed him; it was old age (and low nitric oxide). I am pretty sure my grandfather was vaccinated for smallpox. I was, my mother was, all my siblings were. My grandmother’s father was a doctor; it is quite likely that they were all vaccinated.

    Sources prior to the modern era are only useful for epidemiological data. “Scientific” judgments derived from the pre-modern understanding of physiology don’t have any value. Writers from 1888 knew nothing about modern physiology and how the immune system actually functions. They are very likely to be wrong as the antivax screeds you have posted demonstrate.

    That a search of the antivax literature over the last 120 years shows up a few dozen antivax whack-pieces by antivax whack-jobs isn’t a surprise. That you think citing something 120 years old somehow supports your antivax position shows just how anti-scientific and nutty your whacky beliefs are.

    Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but if you think 120 year old references (and from encyclopedias!?) have any relevance to modern vaccines you are delusional. You are dangerously delusional. You do not have the ability to evaluate reality honestly or realistically, but only through your antivax wackiness. You are cherry picking the literature, looking for things, for anything that supports your preconceived idea that vaccines are bad. You are not doing research, you are doing marketing. You are looking for sound bites that you can post which will “convince” other like-minded antivax whack-jobs that vaccines are bad. You believe Wakefield’s lies simply because you want to believe them. Facts don’t matter to you, only your antivax whacky beliefs.

    You have demonstrated that your thinking process is completely unreliable and that you don’t know it is unreliable. That is a dangerous combination. Dangerous for you, for those who rely upon you and for those you influence.

    Vaccines from 120 years ago don’t meet modern standards. Every single one of them would be rejected by the standards of today. But guess what, the standards are now better. Vaccines are safer now than they have ever been.

  • http://storkdok-nos.blogspot.com/ Storkdok

    I knew Dr. Meryl Nass personally, she used to live and practice in my town here. While she was a nice person, she was not a respected member of the medical community here. Her whole approach to practicing medicine was anti-scientific. She practiced alternative medicine, not evidence-based but anecdotal medicine. She could not get any physicians to cover her practice because of her quackery.

    She had to stop practicing alternative medicine when she was diagnosed with a brain tumor a few years ago. I have not heard from her or about her since then.

    I suspect more than a few of the “doctors” on this list are in the same category as Dr. Nass.

  • Mary

    daedalus2u,

    It is called evidence that there has always been a portion of society that has resisted foriegn and dangerous crap being given to us in the name of vaccination.

    I will alert every history professor from Calif., to N.Y., that there is NOTHING to glean from history other than entertainment.

    And it is exactly because our “medical” society has gone so far forward that we don’t need vaccines. We didn’t need them then, we don’t need them now. Unless you hold stock in Merck and then of course you might need them.

  • Mary

    As to your smallpox “facts” I’ll stick with the books I”m reading versus your online sources. Clearly I’m getting better intel.

    And yes, stupid people are a drain on society, glad you realize at least that much about life.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Mary, huh? If you get your “science intel” from the 1888 Encyclopedia Britannica and you think that is “better” than current peer reviewed literature, you are a crank of the highest order.

    It was vaccination that eliminated smallpox, and the reason that smallpox vaccinations are no longer given.

    Go ahead, keep spouting off. It just shows the rest of us just how far from reality your antivax beliefs are and the delusions they are based on. Taking medical advice on vaccines from an 1888 encyclopedia? I couldn’t make stuff like that up.

    By the way, if you trust medical advice from 100 years ago, you must use mercury a lot. In this book from 1902

    http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/potter-comp/hydrargyrum.html

    the doctor recommends mercury, and for just about everything. The smallest dose mentioned is 1/100 of a grain of mercuric cyanide. That is 650 micrograms. That is the smallest dose. The dose range is 1/100 to 1/10 of a grain. That is 650 microgram to 6,500 micrograms of mercuric cyanide.

    The highest dose was for blue mass, metallic mercury 1/3 grain, about 20,000 micrograms.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Mary, is your hair pink? Or are you just in that mindset where it’s acceptable to insult people who disagree with you? I mean, seriously, I’ve never met a bigger wanker online in my whole life and I know some people who take PRIDE in being trolls.

    Just sayin’…

  • Gaye

    daedalus2u
    If you had of read my post you would have seen that I couldnt get those sites to come up so thus it is logical (I thought) that I would not know what is in them which was why I was asking what you guys thought of them..

    And thanks for telling me what matters to me.. I didnt realise that..doh..

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Kassiane, at least they have made it to the 19th century and are not advocating burning autistic people as witches (at least not publicly).

    Gaye, looking at encyclopedias that are 120 years old for vaccine information is nutty. Wasting time trying to find 50 and 100 year old antivax information over current peer reviewed vaccine stuff that is available for free on PubMed is nutty. You can’t get a vaccine that is 120 years old, why would you want information on vaccines that is 120 years old? It is completely nutty. You can find reliable peer reviewed current information on PubMed. That is where you should be looking, not 120 year old encyclopedias.

    Antivax quackery is timeless, so the antivax quacks of yesteryear are as useful as the antivax quacks of today, that is not at all.

    You are proving the title of Kristina’s post, An Invasion of MMR/Vaccine Misinformation.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Not *YET.

    Bet they’d consider exorcisms though.

    Think they want their bridge redone to attract more billy goats? Honestly they’re fairly novice as far as trolling goes, but as far as NASTY goes they’re far and away truly terrifying.

    *is resisting the obvious christian dig, since that’s just one step above invoking Godwin, though Formosa’s Law might apply here*

  • karey

    Some undisputed facts regarding artificial immunity to ponder.

    1) It does not provide a life long immunity.

    2) It does not always protect against the disease its meant for.

    3) Artificial immunity is not passed onto infants from their mothers that normally would have had protected them against diseases for the first 12-18 months of their lives.

    4) Vaccines can not eradicate the disease, they are the disease.

    5) Physicians are paid bonuses and educated about vaccines by the vaccine makers.

    6) The largest polio outbreak in the united states was caused by a batch of polio vaccines that the Cutter laboratories produced that contained a live polio virus as apposed to the attenuated version. This affected approximately 50,000 people.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    It’s like playing Whack-a-Mole.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    I wonder if they’re the same person?

    Note, of course, the same reliance on old data. REALLY FREAKING OLD DATA.

  • Gaye

    daedalus2u
    Once again I say to you that I found that site, please read people remarks before replying, as I didnt ahve a clue that it was old, I saw the remarks and wondered what it was about so sent it to you guys to look it up as I CANT.. IT WONT COME UP FOR ME,, did you read that, IT WONT COME UP FOR ME…
    You have made this long statement for nothing..

  • Gaye

    daedalus2u, woops I should have checked what I had written down.. I will repeat.
    Daedalus, I didnt have a clue that the site that I posted was old, It looked like some articles that someone could look up for me, as my computer wont bring them up for me to look at. This is why I sent it off to you guys to look for me.. Please next time read all that I say so as to not post something which is not correct..

  • Mary

    Is my hair pink? Again with the riddles, they only make sense to you.

    As to historical information, I never posted it. However, it is relevant, as history always is. I don’t get my information from one source, such as pubmed, I get my information from many sources, both for and against vaccines. I’ve read more than 100 books on the subject of vaccines, the history of vaccines, the injury of vaccines, the way our food chain has been breached and the dangers there.

    D – what do you read other than blogs and pub med? Those who don’t know their history are bound to repeat it. Perhaps, we should keep on killing babies in the name of science so grown people who have compromised immune systems can go to gymnastics.

    That makes way more sense, what WAS I thinking.

    Karey –exactly, thank you for posting.

    HCN – have you ever stopped to think that it could be the very medical establishment that you put so much faith in that is doing the damage to your child.

    As I posted here or on another thread, I’ve had doctors attempting to put my child on medicationsi that most adults won’t take and after nothing more than a cursory visit with no testing, or anything more than “she has allergies.” Uh, really, based on WHAT?

    Clearly I do no know your child’s situation but at some point enough has to be enough, right?

    It was for me and I’ve turned my daughter’s life around. Granted, she is not autistic, but I have read of plenty of cases of autistic children who have had remarkable improvement after various methods. I’m sure you have too and maybe you’ve tried them all.

    But if your child’s system is already compromised and you keep on vaccinating, you are only adding insult to injury.

    There are plenty of references that say NOT to continue to vaccinate a child with a compromised immune system. And no, I’m not going to spend an hour with my books looking for the reference. Even the specialist that dealt with my child, who is JRA said not to ever vaccinate her again.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Gaye, are you telling us that you post things before you bother to read them? That you didn’t notice that the site referred to an encyclopedia from 1888? But since it was antivax it had to be ok and so you wanted to get it? That is completely nutty too. Posting stuff before you have even read it?

    Mary, I read everything, peer reviewed journals, blogs, even the crap that antivaxers put out. Yes it is crap, and I can tell what is crap and what isn’t crap because I have read both.

    PubMed is not “one” source.

    What have books on the history of vaccines told you about smallpox?

    Karey, Your “facts” are anything but. What happened to smallpox? Why have deaths due to smallpox been zero for the past 25 years? Must be all that great nutrition and sunshine that the starving hoards in Africa are getting? So how come other diseases haven’t disappeared too?

  • Mary

    The True History Of Smallpox

    By Ian Sinclair

    In England, compulsory vaccination against smallpox was first introduced in 1852, yet in the period 1857 to 1859, a smallpox epidemic killed 14,244 people. In 1863 to 1865, a second epidemic claimed 20,059 lives. In 1867, a more stringent compulsory vaccination law was passed and those who evaded vaccination were prosecuted. After an intensive four-year effort to vaccinate the entire population between the ages of 2 and 50, the Chief Medical Officer of England announced in May 1871 that 97.5 percent had been vaccinated. In the following year, 1872, England experienced its worst-ever smallpox epidemic, which claimed 44,840 lives. Between 1871 and 1880, during the period of compulsory vaccination, the death rate from smallpox leapt from 28 to 46 per 100,000 population.

    Writing in the British Medical Journal (Jan. 21, 1928 p.116), Dr. L. Parry questioned the vaccination statistics, which revealed a higher death rate amongst the vaccinated than the unvaccinated, and asked the questions:

    “How is it that smallpox is five times as likely to be fatal in the vaccinated as in the unvaccinated? “How is it that in some of our most highly vaccinated towns — for example, Bombay and Calcutta — smallpox is rife, whilst in some of our most poorly vaccinated towns, such as Leicester, it is almost unknown? How is it that something like 80 percent of the cases admitted into the Metropolitan Asylums Board smallpox hospitals have been vaccinated, whilst only 20 percent have not been vaccinated?”

    “How is it that in Germany — the best-vaccinated country in the world — there are more deaths in proportion to the population than in England? For example, in 1919, there were 28 deaths in England, 707 In Germany; in 1920, 30 deaths in England, 354 In Germany. In Germany in 1919, there were 5,012 cases of smallpox with 707 deaths; in England in 1925, there were 5,363 cases of smallpox, with 6 deaths. What is the explanation?”

    In Scotland, between 1855-1875, over 9,000 children under 5 died of smallpox despite Scotland being, at that time, one of the most vaccinated countries in the world. In 1907 to 1919, with only a third of the children vaccinated, only 7 smallpox deaths were recorded for children under 5 years of age.

    In Germany, in the years 1870-1871, over 1,000,000 people had smallpox, of which 120,000 died. 96 percent of these had been vaccinated. An address sent to the governments of the various German states from Bismarck, the Chancellor of Germany, contained the following comment: “the hopes placed in the efficacy of the cowpox virus as preventative of smallpox have proved entirely deceptive.”

    In the Philippines, prior to U.S. takeover in 1905, case mortality from smallpox was about 10%. In 1905, following the commencement of systematic vaccination enforced by the U.S. government, an epidemic occurred where the case mortality ranged from 25% to 50% in different parts of the islands. In 1918-1919 with over 95 percent of the population vaccinated, the worst epidemic in the Philippines’ history occurred resulting in a case mortality of 65 percent. The highest percentage occurred in the capital, Manila, the most thoroughly vaccinated place. The lowest percentage occurred in Mindanao, the least vaccinated place, owing to religious prejudices. Dr. V. de Jesus, Director of Health, stated that the 1918-1919 smallpox epidemic resulted in 60,855 deaths. The 1920 Report of the Philippines Health Service contains the following indictment of the vaccination campaign:

    “From the time in which smallpox was practically eradicated in the city of Manila, to the year 1918 (about 9 years) in which the epidemic appears — certainly in one of its severest forms — hundreds after hundreds of thousands of people were yearly vaccinated, with the most unfortunate result that the 1918 epidemic looks, prima facie, as a flagrant failure of the classic immunization towards future epidemics.”

    In Japan in 1885, 13 years after compulsory vaccination commenced there in 1872, a law was passed requiring re-vaccination every seven years. From 1886 to 1892, 25,474,370 revaccinations were recorded in Japan. Yet during this same period, Japan had 156,175 cases of smallpox with 38,979 deaths, representing a case mortality of nearly 25 percent. In 1896, the Japanese Parliament passed another act requiring every Japanese resident to be vaccinated and re-vaccinated every 5 years. Between 1889 and 1908, there were 171,611 smallpox cases with 47,919 deaths — a case mortality of 30 percent. This case mortality exceeds the smallpox death rate of the pre-vaccination period when nobody was vaccinated. It is noteworthy that Australia at this time — one of the least-vaccinated countries in the world for smallpox — had only three smallpox cases in 15 years, in comparison with Japan’s record of 165,775 cases and 28,979 deaths, in merely a 6-year period of compulsory vaccination and re-vaccination.

    In an article, “Vaccination In Italy”, which appeared in the New York Medical Journal, July 1899, Charles Rauta, Professor of Hygiene and Material Medical in the University of Perguia, Italy, wrote:

    “Italy is one of the best-vaccinated countries in the world, if not the best of all. For twenty years before 1885, our nation was vaccinated in the proportion of 98.5 percent. Notwithstanding, the epidemics of smallpox that we have had have been something so frightful that nothing before the invention of vaccination could equal them. During 1887, we had 16,249 deaths from smallpox; in 1888, we had 18,110, and in 1889, 131,413.”

    “Vaccination is a monstrosity; a misbegotten offspring of error and ignorance. It should have no place in either hygiene or medicine. Believe not in vaccination; it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practice, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end.”

    From his book, The Vaccination Superstition, J.W. Hodge, M.D., ex-Public Vaccinator of Lockport, New York wrote:

    “After a careful consideration of the history of vaccination gleaned from an impartial and comprehensive study of vital statistics, and pertinent data from every reliable source, and after an experience derived from having vaccinated 31,000 subjects, I am firmly convinced that vaccination cannot be shown to have any logical relation to the diminution of cases of smallpox.”

    “Vaccination does not protect; it actually renders its subjects more susceptible by depressing vital power and diminishing natural resistance, and millions of people have died of smallpox which they contracted after being vaccinated.”

    In the USA, June 25th, 1937, Dr. William Howard Hay addressed the Medical Freedom Society regarding the Lemke Bill to abolish compulsory vaccination. He stated:

    “I have thought many times of all the insane things we have advocated in medicine, that one of the most insane was to insist on the vaccination of children, or anybody else, for the prevention of smallpox when, as a matter of fact, we are never able to prove that vaccination saved one man from smallpox.

    “I know of one epidemic of smallpox comprising nine hundred and some cases, in which 95 percent of the infected had been vaccinated, and most of them recently.

    “It is now thirty years since I have been confining myself to the treatment of chronic disease. I have run across so many histories of children who had never seen a sick day until they were vaccinated, and who have never seen a well day since.

    “In England, where statistics are kept a little more frankly and accurately and above-board than in this country (USA), the actual official records show three times as many deaths directly from vaccinations, as there were from smallpox for the past twenty-one years. I will guarantee that there are three times as many deaths that were not recorded, that are directly traceable to vaccinations. That doesn’t take into account the many many cases of encephalitis or sleeping sickness, and of this or that form of degeneration, that occurs as the result of vaccination.

    “It is nonsense to think that you can inject pus — and it is usually from the pustule end of the dead smallpox victim — it is unthinkable that you can inject that into a little child and in any way improve its health. What is true of vaccination is exactly as true of all forms of serum immunization, so called, if we could by any means build up a natural resistance to disease through these artificial means, I would applaud it to the echo, but we can’t do it.

    “The body has its own methods of defense. These depend on the vitality of the body at the time. If it is vital enough, it will resist all infections; if it isn’t vital enough, it won’t. And you can’t change the vitality of the body for the better by introducing poison of any kind into it.”

    According to the official figures of the Register General of England, only 109 children (under 5) in England and Wales died of smallpox in the twenty-three years ending December 1933. But 270 died of vaccinations in the same period in these two countries. Between 1934 and 1961, not one smallpox death was recorded, and yet during this same period, 115 children under 5 years of age died as a result of the smallpox vaccination. This ultimately forced the government to repeal the Vaccination Act for smallpox.

    The situation was just as bad in the USA. An article in the July 1969 issue of Prevention Magazine stated that 300 children in the USA died from the complications of smallpox vaccine since 1948. Yet during that same period there was not one reported case of smallpox in the country. In October 1971, Dr. Samuel Katz, Duke University Medical Centre, speaking at the annual meeting of the American Academy of Pediatrics, said that an average of six to nine individuals die each year from smallpox vaccinations. Authorities eventually abandoned the vaccine, as Dr. Archie Kalokerinos of Australia points out:

    “About 10 to 15 years ago, some of my colleagues in the United States gave me some very interesting information. They said that smallpox vaccination had been stopped, not because smallpox had been wiped out, but because they were having trouble with the vaccine. They would vaccinate an individual and that individual would give active smallpox to a contact. The whole thing was out of control and they weren’t game to use it.”

    This is probably why Professor Ari Zuckerman, a member of the World Health Organization’s advisory panel on viruses has stated, “Immunization against smallpox is more hazardous than the disease itself.”

    Even the British Medical Journal (1/5/1976) stated: “It is now accepted that the risks of routine smallpox vaccination outweigh those of natural infection in Britain.”

    “Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize into an undercover dictatorship … To restrict the art of healing to one class of men and deny equal privileges to others, will constitute the Bastille of medical science.”

    – Benjamin Rush, M.D.
    Signatory to the Declaration of Independence
    Physician to George Washington

    “If humanity is to pass safely through its present crisis on earth, it will be because a majority of individuals are now doing their own thinking.”

    – Buckminster Fuller

    Reproduced with permission from Vaccination: The “Hidden” Facts by Ian Sinclair, 5 Ivy St, Ryde NSW 2112, Australia. Ph (015) 294 817.

  • Mary

    And when I mentioned 10% of the population being vaccinated, I was referring to the U.S. in the 1800s. I can’t find the source in my books, but then I do have a life. So, if that particular one is incorrect due to faulty memory, then so be it. The facts still remain that vaccinations had the smallest impact on the removal of smallpox, NOT the biggest.

  • Mary

    The Dangers of
    Smallpox Vaccination

    Compiled by Gary Krasner

    The public is now getting lots of medical propaganda about the eradication of smallpox through vaccination. But in fact, the consensus among leading medical historians that have studied the question have maintained that the eradication of the zymotic, or “filth” diseases, like cholera, dysentery, typhus, plague, in the past that are popularly attributed to mass vaccination campaigns, had actually been due to improvements in diet, hygiene, sanitary measures, non-medical public health laws, and to a host of new non-medical technologies, like refrigeration, faster transportation, removing horse manure from cities, and the like (McKinlay, 1977; McKeown, 1979; Moberg & Cohen, 1991; Oppenheimer, 1992; Dubos, 1959).

    The CDC reported (Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, July 30, 1999, 48:621-628) that improvements in sanitation, water quality, and hygiene had been the most important factors in control of infectious diseases in the past century. Although vaccines were mentioned, they were not included among the major factors.

    One of the conclusions in Thomas McKeown’s seminal work, The Modern Rise of Populations (1976, also endorsed by a Lancet editorial, 2/1/75), was that the decline in mortality in the 18th and 19th centuries was essentially due to the reduction in deaths from infectious diseases, and that it was not the result of immunizations. Similar studies by scholars John and Sonia McKinlay (1977) shows that almost all the increase in human lifespan since the year 1900 is due to reductions in infectious disease, with medical intervention (of all kinds) accounting for only about 3 percent of that reduction. According to World Health Statistics Annual, 1973-76, Vol.2, “there has been a steady decline of infectious diseases in most developing countries regardless of the percentage of immunizations administered in these countries.”

    Before health agencies and schools of public health were completely taken over by allopathic medicine, in the service of their pharmaceutical cartel owners, the great legacy of the sanitary reformers — Max von Penttenkofer, James T. Briggs, Dr. John Snow, Edwin Chadwick, Florence Nightingale, Dr. Southwood Smith, et al. was that they were able to eradicate cholera, yellow fever, tuberculosis, typhus, typhoid, scarlet fever, diptheria, whooping cough, measles, and the bubonic plague long before vaccinations were developed or routinely used.

    Not only had poor sanitation and nutrition lain the foundation for disease, it was also compulsory smallpox vaccination campaigns in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that played a major role in decimating the populations of Japan (48,000 deaths), England and Wales (44,840 deaths, after 97 percent of the population had been vaccinated), Scotland, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Holland, Italy, India (3 million — all vaccinated), Australia, Germany (124,000 deaths), Prussia (69,000 deaths — all re-vaccinated), and the Philippines. The epidemics ended in cities where smallpox vaccinations were either discontinued or never begun, and also after sanitary reforms were instituted (most notably in Munich — 1880, Leicester — 1878, Barcelona — 1804, Alicante — 1827, India — 1906, etc).

    In many nations, mortalities from smallpox hadn’t begun to decline until the citizenry revolted against compulsory smallpox vaccination laws. For example, the town of Leicester from 1878 to 1898 stood in stark contrast to the rest of England, where thousands were dying from the aggressive half-century-old government mandatory immunization campaigns.

    By 1907, the Vaccination Acts of England were repealed, with the help of some of the world’s preeminent scientists who had turned staunchly against vaccination: Alfred Russell Wallace (one of the founders of modern evolutionary biology and zoogeography, and co-discoverer with Charles Darwin of the Theory of Natural Selection), Charles Creighton (Britain’s most learned epidemiologist and medical historian), William Farr (epidemiologist and medical statistician, first to describe how seasonal epidemics rise and fall — known today as Farr’s Law”), and the renowned Dr. Edgar M. Crookshank, Professor of Bacteriology and Comparative Pathology in King’s College, London, and author of the scathing scientific critique of vaccination, The History and Pathology of Vaccination (1889). But before the law was amended in 1898 to include a conscientious exemption clause, an average of 2,000 parents per year were jailed and prosecuted — some repeatedly — for resisting vaccination. Large numbers went to prison in default of paying fines. Hundreds had their homes and possessions seized.

    By 1919, England and Wales had become one of the least vaccinated countries, and had only 28 deaths from smallpox, out of a population of 37.8 million people. By contrast, during that same year, out of a population of 10 million — all triply vaccinated over the prior 6 years — the Philippine Islands registered 47,368 deaths from smallpox. The epidemic came after the culmination of a ruthless 15-year compulsory vaccination campaign by the U.S., in which the native population — young and old — were forcibly vaccinated (several times), literally against their will. In a speech condemning the smallpox vaccine reprinted in the Congressional Record of 12/21/37, William Howard Hay, M.D. said, “… the Philippines suffered the worst attack of smallpox, the worst epidemic three times over, that had ever occurred in the history of the islands, and it was almost three times as fatal. The death rate ran as high as 60 percent in certain areas, where formerly it had been 10 and 15 percent.” In the province of Rizal, for example, smallpox mortalities increased from an average 3 percent (before vaccination) to 67 percent during 1918 and 1919. All told, after 10 years (1911-1920) of a compulsory U.S. program which administered 25 million vaccinations to the Philippine population of 10 million, there had been 170,000 cases, and more than 75,000 deaths from smallpox.

    Inducing the public to clamor for smallpox vaccines for every American will lead to a repeat of the aforementioned tragic events. In many additional cases the sickness, injuries and deaths commonly attributed to the microbe were actually due, wholly or in part, to the poisoning effects of vaccination campaigns: from the worldwide influenza epidemic of 1918-19 that killed 20 million following the administration of anti-typhoid inoculations, to the 1976 Swine flu “epidemic” (among hogs!) that permanently crippled a “meager” few thousand Americans with Guillain-Barré syndrome following an ill-advised national vaccination program. Paralytic diseases have been recorded hundreds of years ago. But epidemic numbers had not appeared until the latter part of the 19th century, right after compulsory smallpox vaccination was instituted.

    ** I am sure you will dismiss this as well. It’s meant more for lurkers who don’t know the facts, than for you, who clearly ignores facts or simply hasn’t done much homework on the real subject, it’s historical timeline, etc.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    I am the author of this weblog and am very glad that difference opinions are being posted here.

    The scientific evidence disputes a link between vaccines or something in vaccines and autism. Clearly this issue arouses a lot of interest and passion (as noted in the above comment thread).

    It should be noted that the above thread is not about autism but about vaccines and concerns about their safety, and about one hypothesis of autism causation which tends to distract discussion from the issues of most concern—-how best to teach, educate and help autistic individuals to grow and thrive.

  • Mary

    Actually, the premise of this thread was was that the worst, most destructive idea of our times was the fact that vaccines were safe and do not cause autism.

  • Regan

    “…which tends to distract discussion from the issues of most concern—-how best to teach, educate and help autistic individuals to grow and thrive…”

    Point demonstrated. Thank you Kristina.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    I find the “spamming” of certain posts that mention vaccines with comments full of “references” and “evidence”and anecdotes an intriguing developments.

  • Mary

    So now I’m a spammer?

    At least that’s a step up from liar.

    I was asked about smallpox info, and I posted it.

  • tsquared

    @Kristina – thank God for the voice of reason. It frustrates me to no end that 90% of the threads about autism in this world that I read for useful info for my kid get hijacked like this.

    @Mary – “the worst, most destructive idea of our times was the fact that vaccines were safe and do not cause autism.”

    Um, huh? I guess we should ignore the Holocaust, slavery, apartheid, the displacement and genocide of scores of native peoples, the Crusades, and God knows what else – all of which were based on ideas, and none of which have really left us.

    Even if one were to accept your premise, which I don’t, it’s precisely this dramatic hyperbole and we-didn’t-really-land-on-the-moon levels of conspiracy required for them to be true that leads so many to varying levels of rejection of these arguments. If even half of your assumptions were true, we’d all be dead rather than having this conversation.

    Do I believe all vaccines are safe for 100% of the people, no. Nothing in this world is 100%, but also nothing I’ve read has convinced me that the benefits don’t outweigh what I consider to be minute risks.

    I also don’t believe this has sod all to do with autism, and particularly not my own child.

    Even though I wouldn’t agree with everything Kristina has said about all this, I admire that she has shown incredible restraint here.

    Honestly this conversation is pointless to have, but it keeps going on and on ad nauseum. But when people don their Captain Hyperbole shirts (“It’s at least a zillion jillion times worse than you think!!!”) and go off on blogs, they shouldn’t be surprised when people don’t take them seriously.

  • http://crimsonthought.blogspot.com Cliff

    “Actually, the premise of this thread was was that the worst, most destructive idea of our times was the fact that vaccines were safe and do not cause autism.”

    I have generally yet to say anything in this fight (a lot of nastiness, cherrypicking; little more general information), but I will note here that, considering the very title of the post, which I’m sure you can read, this is a very odd assertion, not to mention that it runs counter to the, umm, title of the blog post, which generates the thread.

    Cliff

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    *sigh*

    Mary, you’re a troll. Pink hair. Get it? No? Too much of a thinking-ectomy?

    Antivaccinationists are more dangerous than autismby 1000fold. You, dearie, are a trolling eugenicist.

    Clear?

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    I looked up a little on Ian Sinclair, what a whacked out crank extraordinaire.

    He doesn’t subscribe to the germ theory of disease, but some whacked-out made-up notion that is nuttier than a fruit cake.

    “These microorganisms (germs) feed upon the poisonous material which they find in the sick organism and prepare it for excretion. These tiny organisms are derived from still tinier organisms called microzyma. These microzyma are present in the tissues and blood of all living organisms where they remain normally quiescent and harmless. When the welfare of the human body is threatened by the presence of potentially harmful material, a transmutation takes place. The microzyma changes into a bacterium or virus which immediately goes to work to rid the body of this harmful material. When the bacteria or viruses have completed their task of consuming the harmful material they automatically revert to the microzyma stage”.– Bechamp [Sourced: Vaccination The "Hidden" Facts by Ian Sinclair p62]

    This book was written in 1992. Here is what a web site selling it says

    “Vaccination – The Hidden Facts by Ian Sinclair (1992)

    After the author’s son was hospitalised following his first vaccinations in 1985, Ian Sinclair spent the next six years researching vaccination, and uncovered massive amounts of scientific and medical evidence clearly proving that vaccines played no part whatsoever in the decline of infectious disease, and that they are neither safe nor effective. A layperson’s well-documented look at the evidence against vaccination. “

    Pretty whacked out. Disease is caused by ill health which then spontaneously generates poisonous material, and bacteria or viruses occur due to spontaneous generation from that poisonous material and which actually detoxify it? I couldn’t make this stuff up.

    It turns out that Ian Sinclair, with all his health knowledge died at the ripe old age of 53.

    Interesting that his “true history of smallpox” written in 1992 doesn’t mention its eradication.

    “In 1806, Thomas Jefferson congratulated Jenner: “Future generations,” he wrote, “will know by history only that the loathsome smallpox existed and by you has been extirpated” Both of Jefferson’s predictions proved to be true; less than 200 years after the vaccination of James Phipps, the penultimate act of the smallpox drama was played out in a small Somali village called Merka. Ali Maow Maalin, a cook, developed the characteristic smallpox rash on 26 October 1977 and was the last person to acquire the illness as a result of direct contact with another human being. The final act was the official declaration that the illness had been wiped off the face of the earth. This occurred on 8 May 1980, when the 33rd Assembly of the World Health Organization (WHO) accepted the Final Report of the Global Commission for the Certification of Smallpox Eradication.”

    http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/127/8_Part_1/635

    This is like watching a train wreck. I have a hard time looking away.

  • Regan

    Microzyma (minute ferment bodies)
    The groundbreaking science of 1864 put forth as an “alternative” explanation to Pasteur’s germ theory.

    If you follow this out to it’s (il)logical conclusion then even liquid zeolite and the DANs would be out of business since the theory is based on blood purification and rejection of all medicine…natural, herbal or otherwise.

  • Gaye

    Kristina, you said…I find the “spamming” of certain posts that mention vaccines with comments full of “references” and “evidence”and anecdotes an intriguing developments.if people just give what they think they are told their ideas are unsubstantiated and that there is no medical proof for what they say..hmmm..

    Cliff, I totally agree with you, being nasty about others point of view does not make their view any more reputable.. this type of discord does not help anyone to listen to the others point of view… And people should take notice that the person who started this dialogue (Kristina) does not lower herself to nasty remarks so we must respect her and do likewise.

    We also have to note that there is obviously many professional people who dont agree with immunization, that it is causing problems, and there is no doubt many more but if they let their opinions known they are struck off the medical list.

  • Mary

    daedalus2u,

    Thank God you are here. I have totally changed my mind. You are an a treasure, truly. Here I was set to protect my children from further medical damage via vaccines, but what was I thinking. After all, their health is of the least importance when we have people like Kassiane who want to go to the gymnastics place.

    I plan to have them all vaccinated tomorrow, I’ll double up on vaccines if necessary. It’s all in the name of good health and I’m sure they’ll be fine. I’d do it tonight but it’s late……….

    Oh wait, they give vaccines at Walgreens now. I’ll go there, surely the high school clerk will know how to deal with shock, allergic reactions or death — don’t you think?

    Thankfully, you were here to shine the bright light of tolerance and understanding toward my feeble brain.

    I did miss, however, where exactly Sinclair got his information wrong about smallpox? Surely you’ll illustrate that for me further.

    Heaves knows I’ll have my hands full with three crying kids tomorrow, or possibly even making funeral arrangements for one of them. After all, vaccine reactions run in the family, but that’s not important, what is important is that you and yours are so right about vaccine safety..

    Thanks again…….. truly……….

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    I’m not so sure about any nastiness in Cliff’s post…… I’ll reference Andrew Solomon on Kathleen Seidel in New York Magazine about the purported vaccine-autism link:

    “From the neurodiversity perspective, the escalating vogue for arguing that vaccines cause autism is not just incorrect but offensive, implying as it does that their condition is a side effect of poisoning.”

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Mary, you’re a real piece of work.

    Show me where it’s written that I shouldn’t be allowed to train with my team? Cuz you know where it’s written that I CAN? THE ADA. Not only was I damn good, it was also sensory integration therapy.

    Now go die in a fire.

  • Gaye

    OH FOR GOODNESS SAKE daedalus2u
    I am not even going to bother to answer most of what you said. I wanted to know if there was anything in that which was either way, I hadn’t even looked to see if it was for or against, it just looked like there was some professional people in it, but you obviously being so much more intelligent than I will probably come back and criticize me for that as well..
    I just hope that non of yours die early from cancers or other diseases caused by the toxins in immunizations. 4 years ago my husband had a stage 2 and 3 melanoma removed out of the site where he had his TB scratch on his forearm, (it had always stayed red). Recently we were surprised to come across another girl 10 years younger, who had this great big gouge taken out of her arm muscle and we asked her what had happened, she said that it was a melanoma and she said that the surprising thing was that it was where she had had her TB injection on her arm. But in both cases the surgeon said that he wouldn’t report it as there was no evidence that anyone gets cancers on their immunization sites, to which I said that if Dr’s don’t report these things there will never be any evidence.

  • Mary

    OOOOHh, sensory integration disorder, intresting. My daughter had that as well and worked with Arrowhead West out of Pratt, Kansas. They came to the house for almost two years, every week. She did Karate for her therapy and had phyiscal therapy on top of that. All from vaccine injury.

    I’m still getting ready to rush her out for more vaccines just so people like you can feel safe and secure. Dont’ forget now Kassiane, those vaccines wear off after ten years (that was you that said that right, with no sources) so you’ll want to make sure and stop by Walgreens too and get all up to date.

    I’ll let you know if she dies, so that you can be rest assured she is no murderer. Ahh, but now that would make YOU one wouldn’t it?

    Hmm,,, what a conundrum.

    Well, no matter. I’ve seen the light now and I’m just happy some smart ass autistic woman on the internet can tell me what my daughter needs.

    I almost listened to my own motherly instinct and stopped vaccinating her into death, but then you all came along and I realized I didn’t know anything. What would I do with out you??

    Sweet, wicked smart, Kassiane.

  • Gaye

    No Kristina, Cliff has not been nasty, I was agreeing with him over something..I am sorry that it came across as that. I said

    Cliff, I totally agree with you, being nasty about others point of view does not make their view any more reputable.. this type of discord does not help anyone to listen to the others point of view…

    I was not meaning that he was being nasty,, sorry Kristina…

  • Gaye

    daedalus2u
    I have just been over the post that I posted in regards immunizations, and I see that you had to pick on the one that was 100 years ago, and there was two that were around 1920′s, the rest are recent..
    You are having fun eh daedalus…

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Gaye: Only listening to the POV that agrees with her.

    I repeat. A fire. Go die in one.

  • Mary

    Kassiane, too selfish to see past her own life………..

    A fire, how strangely specific……

    Well, I prefer a tornado, perhaps one will take you to the wonderful world of Oz where you will have all the vaccines in the world available to you. Perhaps you can be the great wizard that shoots up the babies, regardless of medical condition. How fun for you.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    Awww! I bet Gaye and Mary are the SAME PERSON!

    Kristina, I know you love free speech, but…trolls arent people.

    Not really.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Time to use extinction, if you don’t mind some ABA-speak.

  • Gaye

    Kassiane
    I live in Australia, and dont know where Mary lives..
    Funny that you say that I only listening to the POV that agrees with me, it appears that that is exactly what you do, and I have come to this conclusion after I gave up nursing and after my grandchild stopped breathing on the way home from her immunization, she had to be monitored for a few months after that and duing that time she stopped breathing a few times, but of course if she had of been in bed where no one could see her she just would have been counted as a cot death, something we didnt see when I was bring up mine.. we never saw children dying for no reason at all, and having said that we didnt have children being sick much either. Other than the mild childhood diseases and we held parties so as our children would get them all over and done with before school, Dr’s thought it was a good idea, Dr’s just used to tell us that they were just mild childhood diseases.. nopw they are killer diseases..

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    I think one of the differences in this discussion is that there are parents, grandparents (Gaye; thank you), and autistic adults participating—-and the perspectives are clearly very different.

  • Gaye

    Up until 28 years ago we Lived in NZ we were brought up on the slopes of Mt Egmont, and my husband and I went to the same school. Only one of the children had asthma even in this cold wet climate. Now when my husband takes the school children on a school camp the children have to line up twice a day to get their tablets, and over half have puffers for asthma… As I have said before, I don’t totally blame immunization, as we also have chemicals in our food and water, but no one can tell me that pumping all this below does not add insult to injury in a little baby..
    Ethylene glycol (antifreeze)
    * Phenol also known as carbolic acid (this is used as a disinfectant, dye)
    * Formaldehyde a known cancer causing agent
    * Aluminum which is associated with Alzheimer disease and seizures also cancer producing in laboratory mice
    - -( it is used as an additive to promote antibody response)
    * Thimerosal (used as a mercury disinfectant/preservative) can result in brain injury and autoimmune disease, which has supposed to have been taken out and hopefully it has.
    * Neomycin, Streptomycin (used as antibiotic) have caused allergic reactions in some people

  • Gaye

    From what I have read these vaccines are grown and strained through animal or human tissues like monkey kidney tissue, chicken embryo, embryonicguinea pig cells, calf serum, human diploid cells
    (the dissected organs of aborted fetuses as in the case of rubella, hepatitis A, and chickenpox vaccines) ..
    Let me say this, if we see some Dr’s or especially the scientists who have manufactured these vaccines, come on TV and allow themselves to be injected with an equivalent adult dose of all this above along with the number of viruses that are pumped into these babies all in one go as they do to babies, and be monitored over 10 years and nothing happens then I will be much happier.. But it would have to be collected and given by a dr who doesnt agree with immunization to make sure it is the real thing. I gather someone has already put out a request for any scientist or Dr involved in Immunizations to do just that about 5 years ago, and they even offered $20.000, but it hasn’t been taken up yet.
    It boils down to the FDA nor food and drug manufacturers can really know that man-made chemicals are safe for long-term use. Think about it. Does a six-month study uncover the true effects of using a product for years?

  • Gaye

    I think that we have done our best to try and make people see our point of view and non of us are gatting anywhere, I appreciate the opinion of others and hope all goes well with you…and I thank Kristina for bring up this very important issue.
    But now I feel it is just who can show the best of their arguments, perhaps it would be best to call all this a day..what do you guys think???

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Gaye and Mary, the two of you really don’t understand. Science is not a question of “arguments” it is a question of facts and logic. You have neither on your side. This is not a close call. What Sinclair left out of his “history of smallpox” was the past 200 years of science that has gone into understanding it and eventually eradicating it. The microzyma idea is completely wrong. Conclusions based on it are also completely wrong. This is not a close call.

    Smallpox is caused by the smallpox virus. It is cured by the immune system suppressing replication of that virus. A smallpox vaccination primes the immune system to suppress the smallpox virus and clear it without getting the smallpox disease. This is the reason, and the only reason that there have been zero smallpox deaths in the past 28 years. Vaccination prevented people from getting smallpox and from transmitting it to anyone else. It was understanding this fundamental aspect of smallpox that provided the motivation and the method for eradicating it. A process that culminated in success in 1977.

    That “your side” gets the story of smallpox so completely wrong shows just how devoid of facts and logic and of the scientific understanding that comes from those facts and logic “your side” is. This is not a close call.

    I appreciate that it must be scary for you to live in a world that is completely incomprehensible, where doctors inject people with toxins to kill and injure them and most people seem perfectly fine with that. The problem is with your delusional world view.

  • Vicky

    Daedalus2u
    You are so wrong. Throughout history those opposing conventional scientific viewpoints were branded heretical. From Galileo to Da Vinci, scientists posing ‘arguments’ running contrary to the dominant ideology were lambasted. In some cases ‘heretical’ scientists were exiled from their countries or executed for proposing bizarre notions such our occupation of a spherical planet.

    When it comes to science there are very few absolute facts and logic evolves with experience. Theories are adapted, synthesised and amalgamated as knowledge grows.

    With regard to Bechamps’ notion of disease. (The one proposed by Sinclair). Pasteur himself recanted his own theories of disease at the end of his life in favour of Bechamps’. By then it was too late – the pharmaceutical industry had been born and our cultural legacy – the notion of an external attacking agent against which we need to be ever vigilant – was created.

    It is pure folly to confuse the all-consuming nature of our contemporary theories on disease – driven by profit and suggestive of ‘silver bullet’ cures – as logical and factual. In this market-driven model of health, to rely on the ‘common sense’ of the day is to hand your reasoning abilities over to the Ad man.

    Mary’s post on the nature and eradication of smallpox and the red herring of vaccination in this process, is well-documented and evidenced. But Big pharma writes the history books and educates our medics so the truth is not the first port of call.

    It is difficult to think outside the box when a whole culture is constructed around a differing viewpoint which seems as simple as ‘fact’ and ‘logic’. But the time to REALLY question is upon us.

    I think this thread has disintegrated somewhat into two immoveable camps throwing rotten eggs at each other with little hope for real influence or change. I hope it has served to encourage people to question their positions:
    Do not look in the same places for your information on a viewpoint. Try to read from a source with which you might not agree and do so with an open mind.
    Before you accept a study or RCT, make sure you read the abstract at least. Question who funded the study, what the exclusion criteria were and how big the sample group were.

    I don’t think anyone is suggesting that doctors are by nature murderous or stupid, but they are influenced by an almighty machine and they are not immune to misinformation. Many work very long hours and have little time for questioning the model in which they operate. Most of them get their information from very limited sources under the influence of pharmaceutical companies. Some are paid directly by drugs companies.

    Kristina – I am sorry that you feel that the issue of ‘educating teaching and helping’ autistic children has been side-tracked in this thread by those who are passionate about vaccination and its ills. I sincerely hope that you get to resume your normal activities soon, I am sure this is an invaluable resource.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Vicky,
    I think it’s unfortunate but expected. What kinds of educational strategies have you tried for your child? Very best—

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Vicky, I take issue with your suggestion that:

    “Before you accept a study or RCT, make sure you read the abstract at least.”

    Huh? Before I “accept” a study, I have read the entire study, most of the references the study has cited (those that I can get), many references of those references, and most other papers that have cited the study. That is not just reading the abstracts of those references, but reading and understanding entire papers.

    That is the “normal” way to understand a study. If one has not done that, there is no way that one can understand a study. If you don’t understand a study, one should not “accept” it.

    The opinion of someone who has “accepted” something they do not understand is of zero value. It is worth nothing.

    The only reason you have “accepted” the wacky antivax ideas is because you don’t understand them and you don’t understand the reality of the germ theory of disease.

    Believing things you don’t understand isn’t science it is wacky nuttery.

  • Vicky

    daedalus2u.
    The fact that you choose to respond with personal insults and not to respond to any of the real content of my post is why this debate cannot really go anywhere. I do not completely throw out the germ theory of disease, but I do not subscribe to it in its unquestioned entirety. Interesting that you chose not to address the issue of Pasteur’s change of mind.

    On the issue of proper consideration of research: I was making a general suggestion to the posters and lurkers here (of either camp) who use inadequate sourcing and to everyone who reads the headline and not the content.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Vicky, Pasteur died in 1895; over a century ago. Look at him on Wikipedia.

    99.99%+ of the work supporting the germ theory of disease has occurred since his death. Nothing reliable has contradicted it.

    I think the story of Pasteur recanting the germ theory on his death bed is a made up lie. Even if it is true, the man’s life’s work (and a very great life’s work it is) stands for far more than a mistake at the end of his life when (and if) his cognitive faculties left him. The only way he would have recanted his life’s work is if he became delusional at the end of his life. That does happen to some people and is very unfortunate when it does. That does not detract one bit from the work he did when he could think clearly and brilliantly.

    What insult? That the ideas you spout are delusional nonsense? That is a statement of fact.

    You don’t understand the factual basis for the germ theory and for vaccination. That is not an insult; it is a statement of fact.

    Your opinions on things you do not understand have no scientific value. That is not an insult; it is a statement of fact.

    My opinions on things that I do not understand also have zero scientific value. I know enough to not spout off on things I do not understand. You don’t know enough to not spout off on things you do not understand. That is not an insult; it is a statement of fact.

    If you don’t have nutty and delusional beliefs, I certainly will not say that you do. I am not trying to be insulting. You have nutty and delusional beliefs that are preventing you from understanding reality as it actually is. I don’t know why you have nutty and delusional beliefs, or why you choose to maintain them despite overwhelming evidence that they are nutty and delusional.

    This is not a close call. There is overwhelming evidence that the germ theory of disease is correct and that vaccines prevent the diseases they are intended to. Maybe you will find people who will humor you. I think humoring antivaxers such as yourself it not appropriate. I can’t humor you because you are spouting off dangerous nonsense that will injure people if they follow what you are saying. I care more about the lives of the people your dangerous nonsense might injure than I do about your feelings.

  • Regan

    “Interesting that you chose not to address the issue of Pasteur’s change of mind.”
    ————————–
    Citation, please.

  • Gaye

    daedalus2u, you said….
    Science is not a question of “arguments” it is a question of facts and logic. You have neither on your side.
    you obviously havent read all my posts.

    Immunizations have been so artfully and aggressively marketed that most parents believe them to be the “miracle” that has eliminated many once-feared diseases. Consequently, for anyone to oppose them borders on the foolhardy. For a paediatrician to attack what has become the “bread and butter” of paediatric practice is equivalent to a priest’s denying the infallibility of the pope.
    It is commonly believed that the Salk vaccine was responsible for halting the polio epidemics that plagued American children in the 19405 and 1950s. If so, why did the epidemics also end in Europe, where polio vaccine was not so extensively used? Of greater current relevance, why is the Sabin virus vaccine still being administered to children when Dr. Jonas Salk, who pioneered the first vaccine, points out that Sabin vaccine is now causing most of the polio cases that appear.
    Go back and see the list of Dr’s/professors that I have inserted and what they say..

  • Gaye

    While the myriad short-term hazards of most immunizations are known (but rarely explained), no one knows the long term consequences of injecting foreign proteins into the body of children. Even more shocking is the fact that no one is making any structured effort to find out.

    daedalus2u, there is growing suspicion that immunization against relatively harm-less childhood diseases may be responsible for the dramatic increase in auto-immune diseases since mass inoculations were introduced. These are fearful diseases such as cancer, leukemia. rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig’s disease, lupus erythematosus, and the Guillain-Barre syndrome, which are all on the increase and might explain they one in five American children are chronically sick.
    An autoimmune disease can be explained simply as one in which the body’s defense mechanisms cannot distinguish between foreign invaders and ordinary body tissues, with the consequence that the body begins to destroy itself. Have we traded mumps and measles for cancer and leukemia?

  • Gaye

    Kenneth Stoller, MD, FAAP said that immunising children is like throwing children into Oncoming Traffic..
    Dr. James R. Shannon, former director of the National institute of health declared, “the only safe vaccine is one that is never used.”

    Daniel Marchini, MD who is a French doctor of medicine, he is also a specialist in homeopathy, is also against immunizations. He wrote that that the work of Pasteur was based on the premise that the human body in its natural state was devoid of all germs and that all contamination always came from without, that is, the environment. During that same period, another researcher Antoine Bechamp demonstrated that bacteria formed an integral part of the human body and that their different forms could be observed.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    “Growing suspicion” by people who don’t understand even the most basic aspects of the germ theory of disease or immunology doesn’t mean anything to me. At one time people “knew” witches caused these diseases and they dealt with them by burning the witches at the stake. Does my “growing suspicion” that ignorance and delusions are spreading antivax nonsense mean anything to you?

    The type of people who “knew” that witches caused disease are the same kind of people that “know” that vaccines cause disease; pre-scientific individuals who are ignorant of the basic facts and logic surrounding physiology, the germ theory of disease and how the immune system works. They use magical thinking instead of scientific thinking. They confuse correlation with causation.

    Jonas Salk died in 1995. On January 1, 2000 the recommendation in the US is to use only inactivated polio vaccine. It can’t cause any cases of polio. Why don’t you check your “facts”. The inactivated vaccine takes multiple vaccinations to be effective. In undeveloped countries children don’t have the opportunity to get multiple vaccinations. The OPV takes one dose. Yes, some cases of polio can result from OPV and from people shedding virus after being vaccinated by OPV.

    Because rich people in developed countries refuse to be vaccinated with deactivated polio vaccine and then develop polio from vaccine shed by poor people from less developed countries who can’t afford deactivated polio vaccine I am supposed to say shame on the poor people who can’t afford the expensive vaccines that would “protect” the rich people in developed countries who refuse to vaccinate themselves with vaccines that are safer? No, I can’t do that. Maybe you can, I can’t.

  • Gaye

    He wrote..
    Even though WHO recognized before 1978, September 28, 1972 to be exact, that smallpox had not been beaten by vaccinations but by medical treatment and isolation, the public and medical domains still believe that it was vaccination that beat smallpox. At the same time, a number of supposed voluntary vaccines were introduced into the population. Being non-obligatory removed the State’s responsibility in cases of accidents. But this non-obligation was in word only… On one hand, by the absence of information available to parents and by the authoritative intervention of physicians in the field of childhood illnesses: whooping cough, measles, rubella… And on the other, by the fact that certain professions are required to be vaccinated, hepatitis B for medical personnel and typhoid A and B, as well as entrance into daycare and certain private schools is conditional upon these so called non-obligatory vaccines…

    He continued..”It has been shown that when a simple vaccine like measles is administered, the child experiences an important decline in his immune defenses which can last three to six weeks… This signature, this distress is exactly the same as that of a person with AIDS, the only difference being that the level of lymphocytes does not go up! It is possible to surmise that a series of immulogical shocks, repeated vaccines and boosters, progressively undermine the immune system…

    Reproduced with permission of Here’s The Key Inc, CP309, Waterloo, Qc JOE 2NO, Canada. Tel: 001 450 297 2533. Fax: 001 450 297 4140

    Selected extracts taken from The Trial of the Medical Mafia by Jochim Schafer ISBN 2921783029.

    To reach Guylaine Lanctot, M.D. Tel: 001 514 297 4128. Fax: 001 514 297 4140

  • Gaye

    Based on the Pasteurian premise, he argues, there was no other recourse but to develop a defense weapon to protect the asepticity of the human body, and that was vaccination: “This technique should protect against infectious bacteria and viruses which threaten man’s vital equilibrium.”

    Dr. Buchwald testifies that his experience includes being a medical counselor to an association of parents whose children have been injured or killed by vaccinations. He adds that he is aware of a thousand vaccination related injury cases and has had personal contact with 350 cases. In 150 of these cases, he wrote the medical opinion and acted as an advisor during the legal proceedings.

    Dr Lanctot (L).: If you take this stand in your country, have you been reprimanded by the medical authorities?

    B.: I wrote a paper entitled, “Vaccinations: A Crime Against our Children”. I received written reprimands from the College of Physicians…

    He continues with a brief history of his experiences in general and describes how he got interested in the whole question of immunization. He recalls that after graduating from medical school, he was a supporter of vaccination policies, as was everyone else he knew. Then he relates to the Committee the story of the eldest of his three children, born in 1957, who at eighteen months received a smallpox vaccination and who, eight days later was no longer able to stand up in his crib. Until then, his son’s development had been absolutely normal:

  • Gaye

    Pasteur defended the aseptic “virginity” of the human being as one vulnerable to being contaminated by his impure environment. This corresponded to the religious ideas of the day. However, Dr. Marchini points out, every physician or mother knows that when, for example, there is an epidemic of measles, and without any direct exposure, the illness still takes hold: “So, if the illness is only propagated between individuals, how does it appear in the first place?”
    “He fell sick with a post-vaccination encephalitis, and ever since, I have a completely destroyed human being at home.”

    “Back then, I was working in one of the oldest lung illness treatment centers in Germany, and just by chance, I looked at the files of those people who had fallen ill during the first German epidemic of smallpox, in 1947. Up to 1974, starting after the WW II, we had eleven smallpox epidemic events in Germany. We had always been told that the smallpox vaccination would protect against smallpox. And now, I could verify, thanks to the files and papers, that all of those who had fallen ill had been vaccinated. This was very upsetting for me…”

    Dr. Buchwald draws the Committee’s attention to a series of about 50 graphs in his book which show that vaccinations have no effect on the decline of infectious diseases. etc etc

  • Mary

    daedalus2u — the vaccine of yore, when doctors traveled and made their own vaccines, literally, from cows, is over.

    Vaccines of today contain dangerous chemicals and retroviruses that cause cancer — FACT.

    Vaccines of today are foisted on our children too soon and too many — FACT.

    A FACT is simply one person’s version of their reality. Your facts are not my facts. I can read the same exact study and come up with different questions and different conclusions. As did the eventers of the polio vaccine, two scientists, two different vaccines, two different histories.

    Polio was NOT the killer it was made out to be, it was marketing. Yes, it did kill, but the same year it was at its peak cancer killed three times as many children (Source: POLIO, An American Story).

    Vicky — you rock.

    Yes, we have traded one disease for others, others that are less forgiving.

  • Gaye

    My understanding of the safety of anthrax vaccine and its role in GWS

    Meryl Nass MD

    Oct 2004

    Meryl Nass. I practice general internal medicine in a community hospital in the US, and also see patients with the diagnoses Gulf War Syndrome (GWS), Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and vaccine-associated illnesses. I have been a student of anthrax and biological warfare for the past fifteen years. I try to apply the tools of medicine, microbiology, immunology and epidemiology to investigate phenomena that are hidden or poorly understood. I am known for having analysed a major anthrax outbreak, which occurred in Rhodesia during its civil war. I showed that none of the explanations for why it was a “natural” event stood up to scrutiny, and that the epizootic was due to biological warfare.[1] My work was discussed in a 1994 Royal Society publication titled “Scientific Aspects of Control of Biological Weapons.”

    My goal was to make it riskier for perpetrators to employ such agents, by showing that science could be used to distinguish between natural epidemics and deliberate dissemination of disease. My interest had been to promote biological arms control, but I was sidetracked into scrutinizing bioterrorism vaccines several years ago.

    Being familiar with the anthrax literature, I was aware that, at the time the US’ Anthrax Vaccine Immunization Program was announced in late 1997, published evidence for both safety and efficacy of the anthrax vaccine was lacking. Dr. Peter Turnbull, formerly head of anthrax research at Porton Down, and others had made this information available in the open literature. Rodent challenge studies showed poor efficacy of the UK and US killed human anthrax vaccines against highly virulent strains, and there existed no published safety data, save from a study of an earlier, unlicensed “Brachman” (aka “Merck”) anthrax vaccine. It contained little information on systemic adverse effects.
    I wrote a short piece for an internet mailing list of infectious disease professionals, ProMed Mail, in late December 1997.[4] It suggested that in the absence of existing vaccine safety data, and in the absence of a cause or causes for Gulf War Syndrome (GWS), the US military should not begin a program to vaccinate 2.4 million troops against anthrax until further research had been performed. At the time I didn’t know that the vaccine was a cause of GWS; it simply seemed unwise to begin a massive peacetime vaccination program for a disease that did not occur naturally, using a vaccine that had no track record.

    My short piece grew legs. It bounced around the Internet, and if you read The Lancet on-line, you could ‘hot key’ directly to my post.[5]

    Well you said that I didnt give any evidence, there is not enough space here to give all that we read by the Professionals..

  • Gaye

    You asked for it…of course I have only posted parts of the articles.
    THE TRUTH BEHIND THE VACCINE COVER-UP

    By Russell Blaylock, M.D. (c) 2004

    This article was sourced from World Natural Health Organization and Nexus Magazine, Volume 12, Number 1 & 2.

    I was asked to write a paper on some of the newer mechanisms of vaccine damage to the nervous system, but in the interim I came across an incredible document that should blow the lid off the cover-up being engineered by the pharmaceutical companies in conjunction with powerful governmental agencies.

    It all started when a friend of mind sent me a copy of a letter from Congressman David Weldon, M.D. to the director of the CDC, Dr Julie L. Gerberding, in which he alludes to a study by a Doctor Thomas Verstraeten, then representing the CDC, on the connection between infant exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental injury. In this shocking letter Congressman Weldon referrers to Dr. Verstraeten’s study which looked at the data from the Vaccine Safety Datalink and found a significant correlation between thimerosal exposure via vaccines and several neurodevelopmental disorders including tics, speech and language delays, and possibly to ADD.

    Congressman Weldon questions the CDC director as to why, following this meeting, Dr. Verstraeten published his results, almost four years later, in the journal Pediatrics to show just the opposite, that is, that there was no correlation to any neurodevelopmental problems related to thimerosal exposure in infants. In this letter, Congressman Weldon refers to a report of the minutes of this meeting held in Georgia, which exposes some incredible statements by the “experts” making up this study group. The group’s purpose was to evaluate and discuss Dr. Verstraeten’s results and data and make recommendation that would eventually lead to possible alterations in the existing vaccine policy. Having read the report twice and having carefully analyzed it; I can see why they did not want any outsiders to see it. It is a bombshell, as you shall see.

    The official title of the meeting was the “Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety Datalink Information.” This conference, held on June 7-8, 2000 at Simpsonwood Retreat Center, Norcross, Georgia, assembled 51 scientists and physicians of which five represented vaccine manufacturers. These included Smith Kline Beecham, Merck, Wyeth, North American Vaccine and Aventis Pasteur.

    look the rest up for yourselves..So you see, would you like me to continue to post the many many articles that I have on this subject??? I have also researched the vaccination point of views as well, to make sure that I am getting a well rounded point of view. It is hard for Dr’s to make statements as they are generally struck off the list if they take a stance against immunization and they havent studied for years to be struck off so they keep quite.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Who published these studies and articles?

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Gaye and Mary, if vaccines don’t prevent disease, why have there been no cases of smallpox for 28 years?

    Is it all that “healthy” living everyone is doing?

    In Ethiopia in 1984 over a million people die of starvation. Zero die of smallpox.
    In North Korea 1996-1999 estimates 200,000 to 3.5 million die of starvation. Zero die of smallpox.
    In Sudan 1998 70,000 die of starvation. Zero die of smallpox.
    Second Congo War 1998-2008 5.4 million dead mostly disease and starvation. Zero die of smallpox.

    Notice a pattern here, millions die of starvation and other diseases, zero die of smallpox? What happened to the microzyma?

    Why don’t you read the actual article that Verstraeten wrote? It is available in the literature, as are the cranks who criticized it as is Verstraeten’s response.

  • Gaye

    This ine is long so look the rest up for yourselves.
    much info there..

    Are Vaccines Causing More Disease Than They Are Curing?
    Copyright 1999 by Alan Cantwell, Jr., M.D.

    Vaccines help keep us safe from infectious diseases. Smallpox and polio epidemics have been wiped out by mass vaccine programs. People rush to get flu shots every fall, and kids are bombarded with a barrage of 22 required vaccinations before the age of six. Even pets need their shots. The manufacture of vaccines is a giant industry and what you pay for inoculations and doctor visits is big business for pediatricians, family practitioners and veterinarians. So why are more and more people worried about vaccines, especially the ones for kids?

    Vaccine-induced Illness

    Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the National Vaccine Information Center, a consumer’s group based in Vienna, Virginia, claims vaccines are responsible for the increasing numbers of children and adults who suffer from immune system and neurologic disorders, hyperactivity, learning disabilities, asthma, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, and seizure disorders. She calls for studies to monitor the long-term effects of mass vaccination and Fisher wants physicians to be absolutely sure these vaccines are safe and not harming people.
    No one can deny the dangers of vaccines. The measles, mumps, rubella (German measles) and polio vaccines, all contain live but weakened viruses. Although health officials tell you that polio has been wiped out in the U.S. since 1979, they often fail to mention that all recorded cases of polio since that time are actually caused by the polio vaccine.
    Vaccine investigator Neil Z. Miller questions whether we still need need the polio vaccine when it causes every new case of polio in this country. Before mass vaccinations programs began fifty years ago, Miller insists we didn’t have cancer in epidemic numbers, that autoimmune ailments were barely known, and childhood autism did not exist.

  • Gaye

    The article continues to say..parts of..

    Using kids as guinea pigs in potentially harmful vaccine experiments is every parents’ worst nightmare. This actually happened in 1989-1991 when Kaiser Permanente of Southern California and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) jointly conducted a measles vaccine experiment. Without proper parental disclosure, the Yugoslavian-made “high titre” Edmonston-Zagreb measles vaccine was tested on 1,500 poor, primarily black and Latino, inner city children in Los Angeles. Highly recommended by the World Health Organization (WHO), the high-potency experimental vaccine was previously injected into infants in Mexico, Haiti, and Africa. It was discontinued in these countries when it was discovered that the children were dying in large numbers.

    Unbelievably, the measles vaccine caused long-term suppression of the children’s immune system for six months up to three years. As a result, the immunodepressed children died from other diseases in greater numbers than children who had never received the vaccine. Tragically, African girl babies in the experiment were given twice the dose of boys, and therefore suffered a higher death rate. The WHO pulled the vaccine off the market in 1992.
    Ironically, the E-Z measles vaccine tested by Kaiser on minority babies was supposed to increase immunity in younger infants. Instead, the vaccine produced the opposite effect. A Los Angeles Times editorial (June 20, 1996) assured readers that “none of the 1,500 was injured by the unlicensed vaccine” and called upon the CDC to ensure that experiments like the E-Z measles vaccine could never occur again.

    One wonders how many secret vaccine experiments are conducted by health authorities that never come to the attention of the public. During the two-year measles experiment I was employed by Kaiser and I never knew anything about it until I read the report in The Times five years later, in 1996.
    In the poor inner cities across the country the number of asthma cases is exploding and health officials don’t know why. According to the CDC, 5000 asthma deaths occur annually; and it is estimated that 17.3 million people (4.8 are children) suffer from the disease, up from 6.7 million in 1980. Asthma usually begins before age 6, and blacks are two to three times more likely to die from asthma than whites. In the Bronx and Harlem sections of New York City, the hospitalization rate for asthma is 21 times higher than in the more affluent areas of the city.
    Could the sharp rise in asthma in poor children be connected with immunosuppression caused by by a barrage of vaccines, as well as a lack of quality medical care and insurance, poor diet, and environmental factors?
    The possible connection of immunosuppressive vaccines to diseases like asthma has never been raised by health officials .

    But vaccine experiments in the 1990s have not been limited to blacks. Millions of female Mexicans, Nicaraguans and Filipinos have been duped into taking tetanus vaccines, some of which contained a female hormone that could cause miscarriage and sterilization. etc etc

  • Gaye

    Yep this sure shows that people just except without any substance eh.. I have so many like this and mainly from dr’s/professors, but of course they are just stupid..

    Rubella vaccine linked to Epstein-Barr Virus—Dr Mendelsohn MD (1987)

    Many people now know about the dangers of DPT shots in babies. and they are rejecting those particular shots. Yet, they still accept other vaccines for their children. So for those trusting souls, here is the latest evidence on the dangers of the German measles vaccine.

    A study of 200 patients with Epstein-Barr Virus (often called Yuppie disease) is scheduled for publication this spring in the journal Medical Hypothesis. In an advance report in the San Diego Tribune (September 30. 1987). the study’s researchers have linked EBV syndrome to exposure to the weakened. but live, rubella virus found in the vaccine. Given to young children, the vaccine can linger in their systems for years and can be passed to adults through casual contact.

    Biomedical researcher Allen D. Allen of Algorithms. Inc. of Northridge. California, blames EBV syndrome on Merck Sharp and Dohme’s Biavax and Meruvax vaccines which were introduced in the late 1970’s. Allen says. ‘I can say all this attention to the (Epstein-Barr) syndrome. the public awareness. started in the early 1980’s. right after these vaccines came out. Young adults. the ones most likely to be in contact with young children, are the primary targets. It’s too much of a coincidence to ignore.”

    In a similar study. Dr. Hugh Fudenberg http://members.aol.com/nitrf, professor of immunology at the Medical University in Charleston. South Carolina found the same linkage in 24 patients.

  • Gaye

    Yes it appears that Pasteur did change his mind… In my archives I found this..

    Louis Pasteur, is often glorified as the savior of humanity, for his twin triumphs of pasteurization and vaccination. What underpin both, of course, is Germ Theory, the foundation of Western medicine and Pasteur’s legacy. The most pioneering areas of science are now showing us that Germ Theory is irrelevant and based upon faulty assumptions. But Pasteur knew this in his own lifetime. On his deathbed in 1895 he said:

    The pathogen is nothing. The terrain is everything.

    So the theory underpinning our entire medical model was denounced by its founder before he died. But his denouncement came too late to stop the medical-industrial complex, which was taking shape at just that time. These moneyed interests, essentially a cartel, formed the American Medical Association to destroy the homeopathic medical profession, which was and is dedicated to just the terrain of which Pasteur spoke. Now a trillion-dollar-a-year business, the industry has more than enough resources, money and power to fund the educations of our next crop of doctors and epidemiologists, who in turn populate the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health and all the top research institutions.

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Kristina, the Verstraeten study was published in Pediatrics in 2004. If you search PubMed for Verstraeten t it is on the first page as is his response. Both are available open access. There are post publication peer review responses by some quacks.

    The draft/transcript referred to by Gaye is a draft/transcript. It was not meant for publication, there were errors in it, it was a preliminary analysis. Some of the wording was imprecise they used “significant” only in a statistical sense. The non-scientists who have reviewed it (such as those at SafeMinds) have imputed the imprecise language to mean things it doesn’t. Such as “significant” in a statistical sense meaning “important” in a health sense.

    I have read the SafeMinds analysis of it, and their analysis is crap. It is full of distortions, misunderstanding, false attribution, cherry picking, taking things out of context. It essentially states that Verstaeten would kill and injure children to make a few pennies.

    What is especially ironic is that the people making those accusations are doing exactly that. The Geiers have (to my mind) fraudulently exaggerated the importance of mercury in autism and how much mercury is removed by chelation. They call it “significant” when all that means is that the measurement is above instrumental error. They allow the incorrect inference that the levels are “important” even though they are not. The average excess mercury secreted by children with autism in their study “a case controlled…” was ~1 microgram per day or ~3 micrograms over 3 days. These are trivial amounts of mercury, the amount one could get from a single bite of a tuna fish sandwich. That was the “average” excess. Many of the children had zero excretion, that is it was below detection limits. Of course they wouldn’t show the actual mercury levels, just the “averages” which we know were skewed by a few high points because the standard deviation exceeded the mean.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Thanks, daedalus2u. Verstaeten is of course not made to look much better in Kirby’s book.

    @Gaye, thanks for compiling all that but the sources in some cases appear to be newspaper articles and what kinds of publishers or journals have published the studies you cite is not clear.

  • Regan

    Interestingly enough I have the source of that Pasteur quote, and regardless of whether he was loopy or not when he said it, it is an oversimplification to call it a flat-out rejection of germ theory without the full text and context from which the quote is drawn, and the purpose to which the sentence was intended.

    Chapter, “Perspectives” pp. 224-275., from Awakenings, Oliver Sacks, 1973. Vintage Books.

    Specific quote on p. 228.

    At some length Sacks talks about considering pathology and treatment as an abstract exercise only concerning the pathogens and medications in the absence of the patient as a person and patient reaction as a variable. The lays out Sack’s deliberation on why there were such variable responses to L-Dopa among those patients who were among his Encephalitis Lethargica patients. FWIW, the theme of not forgetting that patients are people and more than the sum of pathologies is one that carries quite a few of Sacks’ books.

    To say that healthy people fare better than run down people when they become ill is not particularly controversial. To say that yeast transform into bacteria and back again via microzyma is wrong.

  • Regan

    Apologies for typos.

  • tsquared

    Am I misunderstanding something? Are we really debating germ theory?

    a) OMG.

    b) That’s rather like debating gravity or Earth’s rotundity.

    c) Who gives a crap what Pasteur said at the end of his life? Einstein thought quantum theory was bunk. IIRC – Newton was obsessively fanatical about alchemy and the occult. None of that changes the truth of their discoveries. Neither their opinions nor any of ours change the validity of the various laws of the world, universe, etc. We just discover stuff. The laws of nature are what they are.

    Remember, we can often be both unintentionally correct – or even accidently brilliant – and intentionally stupid.

  • Regan

    t-squared,
    I don’t think you are misunderstanding anything. Give it enough time and it could move on to the flux and humors.

  • Gaye

    Could it be that smallpox is caused by a bed bug???

    daedalus2u the “Growing suspicion” is not just by stupid uneducated uniformed idiots it is also amongst Dr’s Professors are researches, but then of course because these people are against it they are also stupid, uniformed etc..
    Dr. Campbell is nominated for the Noble Prize for Medicine. Who was a Texas doctor who discovered that smallpox was only spread by the bite of the bloodsucking insect called the BEDBUG or Cimex Lectularius..
    Dr. Buchwald MD
    Harold Buttram, MD
    Dr. Blaylock is a board certified neurosurgeon, author and lecturer.

    Dr Alan Cantwell, M.D.
    Dr Jayne Donegan, MBBS, DRCOG, DCH, MRCGP Qualified in 1983 – St Mary’s Hospital Medical School, London AUTISM RESEARCH MONOGRAPHS .

    Vaccination policy lags behind vaccine science, by Teresa Binstock December 9, 2007..
    Viera Scheibner, Ph.D. 100 Years of Orthodox Research shows that Vaccines Represent a Medical Assault on the Immune System–Viera Scheibner, Ph.D. (UK: Minerva Books.0171 385 1361)
    Behavioural Problems in Childhood: The Link to Vaccination–Viera Scheibner, Ph.D. ISBN 0957800703

    Kris Gaublomme is a Belgian medical doctor and homeopath. Orthodox trained, Dr Gaublomme began researching vaccination after also qualifying as a homeopath in 1985 and has continued to study the subject with growing concern.

    “Up to 90% of the total decline in the death rate of children between 1860-1965 because of whooping cough, scarlet fever, diphtheria, and measles occurred before the introduction of immunisations and antibiotics.”
    Dr. Archie Kalokerinos, M.D.

    I see no sense in putting the rest of the many many other Dr’s in here as no matter their qualifications they will all be discredited simply because they are not in agreement with immunizations.. I have seen this over and over again, thus the hundreds of Dr’s against immunizations keep quite for fear of having their license taken off them and or being discredited.. I really dont care if people think Immunizations are ok, as long as mine are not immunized.. and yes my grand children were told that they couldnt get into preschools etc, and I asked why but was told that it was because they were a threat to the other children, and I said, that if immunization was effective then it is these children who are a threat to my grandchildren as they are given the live vaccines and could give it to my grandchildren.. Why would by off spring be a danger to these vaccinated kids if vaccines work???

  • Gaye

    There are many Drs like this man below.. well qualified but he will of course be vilified somehow after all he has to be destroyed in some way, where as he once agreed with immunizations he now doesn’t agree with it. Yes many of these Dr’s go to natural medicines as they see this as the way we were made to have the natural, so if they want to help healing they either tell these people to go and get what ever or seek out a good product themselves but most of the Dr’s who i know who have gone to the natural only charge what it has cost them, which is often less than anyone can get at a health shop.

    Dr Archie Kalokerinos MBBS PhD FAPM. spent six years in England. On his return to Australia he was appointed Medical Superintendent of Collarenebri Hospital where he served until 1975. He is a Life Fellow of the Royal Society for Health, a Fellow of the International Academy of Preventive Medicine, Fellow of the Australasian College of Biomedical Scientists, Fellow of the Hong Kong Medical Technology Association, and a Member of the New York Academy of Sciences. In 1978 he was awarded the A.M.M. (Australian Medal of Merit) for ‘outstanding scientific research’. Dr. Kalokerinos has authored a book with profound orthomolecular medicine implications entitled ‘Every Second Child’, as well as many scientific papers. He is also author of two books on the subject of opal, on which he is considered to be an international authority. Currently he is working as a general practitioner at Bingara, New South Wales, where he is in charge of the local hospital. He is also the Honorary Medical Advisor for Aboriginal Health.

    He also believed that vaccination schemes have been used for deliberate genocide..

    The Nobel prize winner Linus Pauling endorsed his views. He wrote many Journals including Bryson AM, Kalokerinos A. (1970) Sudden unexpected deaths in infancy. Med J Aust. Aug 8;2(6):292. PMID 5456573

    There are many Dr’s/ Professors who are against Immunization and I was about to put them on here but decided that even though there are so many that it was just a waste of time that unless one agrees with immunization, you are just crap, stupid nutty, uneducated and a fool etc..

  • http://daedalus2u.blogspot.com/ daedalus2u

    Gaye, all of your arguments are from authority. This “expert” said this, that “expert” said that. The unsupported statement of any “expert” holds as much weight as the unsupported statement of anyone else. That weight would be zero.

    Bed bugs cause smallpox? Wondering what is this guy’s research based on? There have been zero cases of smallpox anywhere in the world in the last 28 years? I looked up Charles Campbell. Turns out he has been dead for 77 years. His “experiment” consisted of exposing a few random people (without consent) to what might have been infectious material from smallpox patients. Since they didn’t get smallpox, he concluded that bedbugs must be a necessary vector for transmission. He didn’t test for actual infectivity; he didn’t test for actual susceptibility. His victims may have been immune because they were exposed to smallpox or smallpox vaccination earlier in their lives.

    The guy was a loon and a crank, not taken seriously even by his contemporaries. He did do some good; he advocated the construction of bat houses.

    If smallpox was caused by bedbugs, and there are still bedbugs around, why is there no smallpox?

    Gaye, take a look at your “thinking” process. You are grasping at straws, any kind of straws to find fault with the idea of vaccination. 100 year old ideas that have been tested and found wrong are not persuasive to anyone who has the ability to think.

  • Gaye

    LIVE POLIO VACCINE VOTED OUT – At a June 20, 1996 meeting of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) of the Centers for Disease Control, members of the federal vaccine policymaking panel voted to move away from use of the live oral polio vaccine (OPV) and toward increased use of the injectable inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) in order to cut down on the number of cases of polio disease caused by OPV in the U.S. each year.

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Two vaccines are used throughout the world to combat polio. The first polio vaccine, developed by Jonas Salk, is an inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV), consisting of a mixture of three wild, virulent strains of poliovirus, grown in a type of monkey kidney tissue culture (Vero cell line), and made noninfectious by Formalin treatment.[8] The second vaccine, an oral polio vaccine (OPV), is a live-attenuated vaccine, produced by the passage of the virus through non-human cells at a sub-physiological temperature. The passage of virus produces mutations within the viral genome, and hinders the virus’s ability to infect nervous tissue.[8]

    Both vaccines have been used for decades to induce immunity to polio, and to stop the spread of the infection.[9

    Koprowski and his group also published a series of detailed reports on the vaccination of 76,000 children under the age of 5 (and European adults) in the area of Leopoldville (now Kinshasa) in Belgian Congo from 1958-1960; these reports begin with an overview,[13] next a review of safety and efficacy,[14] then a 21-month follow-up and final report.[15] An epidemic of polio erupted in Leopoldville two months after the vaccination campaign began and continued at low levels for at least the next 19 months; many dozens of children who had been vaccinated developed paralytic polio. During this same period, Koprowski immunized 40,000 children in Germany and more than seven million in Poland with his attenuated strains.[11]

  • Gaye

    Sorry Kristina, you are right I should put the source in but they are all from Dr’s reports or similar..they are not by newspaper articles, and if they were, as long as they have where they got it from it shuld be ok as long as it canbe checked up..
    There just to many Dr’s who are against immunization to put them all in here, and remember these are just the ones who have had the courage to come out openly against immunizations..

  • Gaye

    Unfortunatly internationalists have consolidated their control by establishing a medical monopoly by eliminating all competition to the drug
    approach. Thus doctors, Professors, Scientists who advocate anything else other than drugs are belittled as quacks, and their natural non-drug therapies are counted as quackery and outlawed, not because they are not effective but only because they are not part of the drug company establishment.
    Could this be why death from Pharmeceutical drugs and Dr’s are the 4th cause of death in America.. and
    The last I read, how come chemotherapy is ligit then when no form of cancer chemotherapy has ever been subjected to a controlled scientific study, that is, in which half the candidates for therapy receive the treatment and the other half do
    not…

  • Gaye

    daedalus2u
    Is there something wrong with you, one minute you say that people on here have unsubstantiated articles and the next you say that all of my arguments are from authority. This “expert” said this, that “expert” said that. The unsupported statement of any “expert” holds as much weight as the unsupported statement of anyone else.
    Isn’t this what you are trying to push on people that ALL your arguments are important and and come from research and experts, isn’t that what you were trying to tell me that mine didn’t and when I do give you some experts on the subject that is wrong also,, come on daedalus2u , maybe I have misunderstood you, but….
    It is very obvious that your knowledge and age totally out weigh any scientist, Professor, or Dr out there so we will just all have to concede that what you say is of all the truth..
    From much of my reading and of course it is only a speck to the vast depths of your fantastic, incredible knowledge, that many studies done for immunizations are also only done on a small sample of people or not at all, (but have been reported as having been done,) and in the early days experiments on immunizations were done on orphans’ or the intellectually handicapped, (orphans dont have parents so they will not be noticed if they die) but of course no matter what qualifications a Professor, Scientist or Dr has if he discovers that he can no longer back immunization he is then discredited as a Quack..

  • tsquared

    Instead of throwing flaming technical-sounding paragraph spaghetti at the wall, can I make a suggestion? Go old school. Write a thesis, three points, and a conclusion, make your argument, support it, cite the sources (fully and with links), and let’s discuss it on the merits. With all the cutting and pasting going on, we may as well be debating the phone book or the Sears catalog.

    Whether or not everything cut-and-pasted into here is valid academic, medical, peer-reviewed, or the mad ravings of an ecstatic poet is almost beside the point, though I will say that if I wrote like some of the referenced documents in an academic paper of my own, I would have been laughed out of school – medical, scientific, media, or any other program.

    Anyway, as any teacher worth their carbon will tell you as early as middle school, anyone can grab a bunch of reference material and paste it into a computer (though we didn’t have those yet in my middle school days). To make your case, you have to make your own argument and support it. “Here’s a bunch of stuff from smart people; you figure it out” didn’t fly anywhere in my school life let alone at the graduate level and beyond.

    I may not agree with you, but if you can write a thesis, some supported points, and a conclusion in a succinct analysis and summary of the million words pasted into this thread, then I’ll at least listen. I sincerely doubt anyone is going to change their minds at this point, but until someone can actually make some detailed, verifiable argument that doesn’t involve grassy knolls and unprovable conjectures, there’s very little reason to.

    Obviously it’s your choice, but if it’s that important to you to reform ‘the system’ then craft your argument with that same zeal. When you come to a blog with a clearly-stated viewpoint about this, don’t expect to win any converts unless you bring your A-game. When you argue to a hostile jury, you don’t make any headway by beating on the jury.

    Believe it or not, I’m trying to be helpful. I’m tired of all the sloppiness in the ‘autism community’ with regard to research and everything else that falls from that. Boiled spaghetti is flying around everywhere with the only prerequisite for talking being 30 minutes watching Sanjay Gupta. Meanwhile, the people doing actual research are frankly doing a poor job communicating their findings to the world in a language parents can grasp.

    Yeah, there’s a lot we don’t know about autism, but the reality is that nature abhors a vacuum and the vacuum WILL be filled with something. If the people who study this stuff all day every day don’t fill that vacuum with something reasoned, thoughtful, and supported, what will fill it is all this bloviating and politicking going on about this all over the blogosphere.

    This turned into a full-fledged rant and got way off the point I started with. Apologies. I’m just tired of this. None of this is helping my kid get the things he needs to be ready for school starting this fall. I’ll even go as far as to say that none of this is helping anyone.

    To close with some wisdom from a professor friend of mine, “What separates us from other species is that we can do more than hold down the Ctrl key.”

    Thanks for listening.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Sniff. Sob. That was beautiful.

  • Mary

    I have been swamped with work but for all you lurkers, a wonderful book is:

    Vaccinations: A thoughtful parents guide by Aviva Jill Romm

    She deals with multiple diseases and vaccines and writes specifically toward small pox as well, pointing out that Europe, who did not mass vaccinate, also decreased in cases to the eventual eradication.

    Nothing is all good or all bad, and if vaccines of today were simply ground up scabs blown in my nose and not cocktails of chemicals, aborted fetuses and viruses, I may believe in vaccines. But today’s vaccines and yesterday’s vaccines are very, very different.

    No one here likely has the time to write a paper, so it’s up to the individual. Personally, I’ve done my homework. I’ve watched my daughter’s suffer from damage done from vaccines and I continue to research for the sake of my family, not to prove to this thread or anyone else that I’m right, but to protect my family.

    The disease have had a natural decline for many reasons and the effects of the vaccines have been the least reason for it.

    Vaccines = Autism

  • Andrew

    Emily what you say herd immuinity is only an unproven theory accepted as fact by commercial science.
    There have been many documented outbreaks of measles in children where uptake rates were over 95% proving herd immunity is a myth.
    If you want authority to be your truth rather truth your authority fine but i will not be playing russion roulette thanks.

    Vaccinations destroy the cellular immune sytem while sending antibody production into overdrive which is responsible for much of the auto immune diseases we see today and leaves one far more susceptable to chronic disease and cancer.

  • Kevryl

    I think Emily has convinced me single-handedly that the pro-vaccine lobby has no credible evidence going for it – only the personal slur and insults I see from pro-vacciners every time I stop into a blog like this.

    It is indeed unfortunate that so many people have been conned by the myth that real life evidence (mere “anecdotal”) is worthless, while statistical evidence, funded by and distorted by the very vested interests themselves is the only evidence that is “scientific”.

    Go figure.

  • Kevryl

    Oh, I did neglect to say she had some help from “Kassiane”. I don’t recall whether Kassiane actually made a point of her own or not. I believe I recall her being referred to as autistic. I know a young lady – well she’s 17 in her body but about 18mths in her mind. Her parents know that her autism resulted from her vaccination. She began to regress in speech and other childhood developments immediately. Her doctor admittered that it was “triggered” but “not caused” by the vaccination. Such is the “double-speak” of those trained by the multi-billion dollar global pharmaceutical ginats.

  • Kevryl

    Tsquared – you make an intelligent argument, but you appear to have missed some well-constructed arguments in this blog. I just had quite a look through, though not exhaustive.

    About a tenth of the way down (27/5/2008 at 10.54am) Mary gave you 3 graphs. Now these graphs have been around a long time and anyone can find them if they care to look. Take for example the one at http://www.vaccinationdebate.com/web1.html and it should be sufficient, on its own to expose the lie that vaccines saved the world from diseases.

    ***Pro-vaccine sites never show the full graph***. They show only a magnified section showing points in time where vaccines were introduced, and by so doing DELIBERATELY mislead.

    Lest I be accused of being overly cynical, see if YOU can think of a reason why the multi-national pharmaceuticals who invest and turn over billions of dollars annually on vaccinations would deliberately skew public opinion by providing misleading information that favours vaccinations? Also, see if you can think of a reason why doctors who train through university courses largely funded by Big Pharma and then receive ongoing training and information from the Big Pharma representatives as well as overseas trips funded by Big Pharma would be in favour of vaccinations.

    Now, please ask yourself one last question. This one is even more important: Given all this training and incentive funded by Big Pharma, what would be a good reason for so many doctors to break away from the accepted line of thinking? Is it because they WANT to be seen as cranks, to be discredited by their peers, lose patients and anger sections of the community? Or is there another reason?

    Let me know what you come up with will you?

  • Kevryl

    oh, “ginats”?? Well that’s our new word for the day. You may have thought it was just a typo. The more intelligent ones, though would have recognised **immediately** that it isn’t the ordinary giants you have to watch; its the giants that SUCK BLOOD! Like GIant NATS. Of course we all know that the word “nat” really begins with a “G”. But following the convention of new word formulation we remove the second unwanted G. Two “G”s, after all is just horsing around and becomes a distraction. And the last thing we need in such a serious blog is a humerous … oops …humourous distraction!

    So please, people – be on the lookout for the GINATS! (not in the dictionary though. This is such “cutting edge” linguistics that its hasn’t yet made a dictionary)

    Do I see just a feint smile breaking out anywhere?

  • Mary

    Kevryl
    I love your reasoning and way with words. We all have typos, but your sarcasm is welcome to me as well!

    We have literally changed our DNA through vaccines; introduced Simian viruses through vaccines; killed babies with vaccines (all in the name of safety of course); and created untold autoimmunity issues and diseases, but the sheep continue to follow the herd and jump off cliffs to their end. After all, it’s what we are expected to do…………………

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Vaccines or something in vaccines do not cause autism.

  • Kevryl

    Oh!… Oh, Ok Kristina. We can all go home now. ;-)

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Yes, the vaccine-autism hypothesis has long enough distracted attention away from the real issues that need to be addressed in discussions about autistic individuals.

  • http://cliffordmiller.com Clifford G. Miller

    I am the British Attorney who represented Dr Donegan before the British General Medical Council in August 2007.

    Dr Donegan’s “Vaccinatable Diseases & Their Vaccines”
    http://www.jayne-donegan.co.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=d%2ffky%2fIvwv4%3d&tabid=451&mid=815

    is a unique reference on vaccination containing legally proven valid medical advice for parents,

    I had the honour to represent Dr Donegan and the pleasure in seeing my client’s position not only vindicated but her medical advice for parents proven valid to the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt – the standard then applied in the GMC proceedings.

    The legal proceedings before the UK’s General Medical Council were extensive, covering a three week period and approaching 400 technical medical papers and articles.

    It was notable that the GMC prosecutor’s expert was unable to produce a single paper establishing the safety of any paediatric vaccine. None of the paediatric vaccines in use today are properly tested. There are also no proper blinded controlled randomised clinical trials, as was established in the evidence.

    “Vaccinatable Diseases & Their Vaccines” is over 60 pages long and contains detailed vaccination information. It can be purchased and downloaded from Dr Donegan’s website.

    If you want other information on vaccination from the case you can see it for free on my pro bono pages at
    http://cliffordmiller.com

  • Brad

    My thought on this is as follows: if you think vaccines are such a terrible thing, then don’t get your children vaccinated. But if they contract one of the diseases vaccines are to protect against, do not cry “unfair”.

    And if schools and the like insist on your children being vaccinated, there is always home schooling.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    That statement about there having been no blinded, controlled, randomized trials for vaccines ain’t true.

    http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/full/169/4/488

    http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/356/19/1915

    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/152/8/734

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095328?ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17012871?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826486?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16094217?ordinalpos=15&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    http://www.curehunter.com/public/pubmed12718836.do

    http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/356/15/1536

    http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iuatld/ijtld/1999/00000003/00000009/art00003?crawler=true

    This one’s a nice description of the placebo-controlled, randomized whooping cough vaccine trials done 50 years ago:
    http://www.jameslindlibrary.org/trial_records/20th_Century/1950s/MRC/MRC-1951-commentary.html

    Some for pertussis in Sweden:
    49. Ad Hoc Group for the Study of Pertussis Vaccines. Placebo-controlled trial of two acellular pertussis vac-cines in Sweden—protective efficacy and adverse events. Lancet 1988;1:955–960.50. Storsaeter J, Hallander H, Farrington CP, et al. Secondary analyses of the efficacy of two acellular per-tussis vaccines in a Swedish phase III trial. Vaccine 1990;8:457–461.51. Blackwelder WC, Storsaeter J, Olin P, et al. Acellular pertussis vaccine: efficacy and evaluation of clini-cal case definitions. Am J Dis Child 1991;145:1285–1289.

    Heps and HPV have gone through the described trials.Varicella vax has been tested in double-blind, placebo controlled, randomized trials. I like this one for MMR; looks interesting:
    Peltola H, Heinonen OP. Frequency of true adverse reactions to measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. A double-blind placebo-controlled trial in twins. Lancet 1986;1:939-42. TWINS!

    There have been trials stratified to specific high-risk groups. There have been trials stratified to specific age groups. There have been trials in specific populations in different regions of the world. There have been randomized, controlled, blinded trials of different combinations of vaccines. There have been many many many double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trials for immunizations.

    And here’s a nice open-access paper from 2001 that lists HUNDREDS of references to the studies that underlie current vaccines, including many many controlled trials:
    http://cmr.asm.org/cgi/content/full/14/4/872

    It’s a good read, if a little dated now.

    Why would anyone even believe that a vaccine would be in use without going through the standard and quite standardized crucible of clinical testing to the top tier? That’s just bizarre.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    I’ve got a lengthy comment pending, but I also wanted to add that it sure was entertaining to click over here to read Brad’s comment and discover that people have been talking to me for months–and I didn’t even know it! Ha!

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Also, I’d be really wary of anyone claiming to have “legally proven” medical advice. That’s just nonsense if you think about it. Is there “medically proven” legal advice?

  • http://autspect.fi/education/page.php?id=18 David N. Andrews M. Ed. (Distinction)

    Emily: “I’d be really wary of anyone claiming to have “legally proven” medical advice. That’s just nonsense if you think about it. Is there “medically proven” legal advice?”

    Absolutely! There is no such thing as ‘legally proven valid medical advice’ because, as we all know, the courts have no qualification upon which to determine the validity status (i. e., ‘proven’ or ‘not proven’) of anything medical: that is a matter for research and publication in peer-reviewed journals.

    As Mr. Miller knows, given his B. Sc. (Hons) in Physics (and his Associateship of the Royal College of Science, as well as his legal qualifications – including at least the Common Professional Examination and the Legal Practice Course), the courts do not determine the validity of evidence presented in scientific research. Nor do they determine the same of evidence presented in medical research.

    The concept of ‘legally proven valid medical advice’ is a – conceptually (and probably legally) – nonsensical one.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Well, I had a lengthy post with about a million links to peer-reviewed, blinded, controlled randomized studies of childhood vaccines, but it hasn’t posted, probably because there are too many links. If anyone’s REALLY interested in tracking them down, it’s pretty easy to do. Google the terms and put in childhood vaccines with them, or go to pubmed and do same. They exist (duh). As though they would not. It’s mind boggling that anyone would seriously believe that these vaccines would not be or have been subjected to the same tiered clinical trial construct that everything else is.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    @Emily, I’m so sorry—-so many links that your comment went straight to the SPAM filter—now it’s out.

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    No big deal. I usually don’t even bother with links–I just say, “Go search for yourself.” Everyone seems to be expert at using Google U…which leaves me wondering why they don’t, especially when they read obviously wild assertions that beg to be investigated.

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    Unfortunately the proportion of misinformation to facts about vaccines on the web seems to be weighted towards the former!

  • Mary

    Sorry guys but my personal experience trumps your “links”

    watching my two daughters injured by vaccines trumps your “links”

    Knowing that other parents have experienced the same or worse trumps your “links”

    Knowing the ingriedents and viruses and aborted fetuses in the vaccines trumps your “links”

    Too bad your mind is so closed that you will never see what is right in front of your own face, and all in the name of being superior to the ones that do believe in a middle ground and do believe that there is more to life than scientific studies and “links”

  • http://blogwithoutatopic.web-log.nl Norah

    So do my personal experiences trump yours?

  • Dedj

    I’m not sure if Mary is a paroday or not, but it does seem silly to champion personal experience as being superior to the study of the evidence for the validity of those personal experiences.

    That’s what these studies do in a indirect manner, they look at the occurance of the events people claim to experience and see if they’re actually happening.

    Overall, they aren’t.

    It’s like claiming your personal experience of watching a pitcher throw one ball in a baseball match gives you better understanding of the league standings, than someone who reads the weekly sports supplements. Your limited experience is always going to be trumped by people who look at the broader picture – everytime

  • http://www.autismvox.com Kristina Chew, PhD

    I think there’s been some similar sorts of comments by “Mary” here before, as on this post:

    http://www.autismvox.com/the-vaccine-autism-urban-myth/

  • http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.com Emily

    Aw, Mary’s just contrary.

    FYI, when one uses “quotation marks” around something in this context, the usual intention is that the term is not exactly what you’re saying and often is the opposite of what you mean. I fail to see how “links” are not, in fact, “links,” regardless of what you may feel “trumps” them.

    I do believe there’s more to life than scientific studies and links (my children, my work, my country, my world, dreams, hopes, spirituality, books, beer and wine, traveling, hiking, writing, loving, living, dying, usw). I’m probably most honestly a worshiper at the altar of intellectual curiosity. That does not, however, involve leaps of faith that defy common sense. This laundry list of “trumps” followed up with a “holier-than-thou” statement as a sort of featherweight verbal coup d’grace is sadly exemplary of the flabby thought processes and shrieking hysteria that underlie so much of the antivax movement.

  • http://www.rettdevil.org Kassiane

    My personal experience trumps Mary’s “scare quotes”.

    Especially since science backs it up.

  • Jonny

    Mary i hate to be the one who says it, but shut up.